Hacker News new | past | comments | ask | show | jobs | submit login

> Unfortunately, history tells us that almost all major gains in freedom come, at one point, through violent conflict/sacrifice.

No, it doesn't. Recent history tells us exactly the opposite:

1) Rise of democracy in Latin America in the 70s and 80s (Argentina, Uruguay, Paraguay, Chile, Brazil)

2) Collapse of communism on Eastern Europe in the 80s and 90s.

3) Democracy in Eastern Asia in the 80s (Indonesia, Korea, Philippines, Pakistan).

4) Nigeria, Spain, Greece

These were achieved through pacific means. The cases of dictatorships that became democracies through violence are very few: Portugal, Romania...

Prior history of violent conflict is precisely what led to dictatorships hardening (leftist guerrilla groups in Argentina, Chile, Brazil and Uruguay, tentative coup in Indonesia, etc.)

Also, violent reaction against dictatorships quite often leads to other dictatorships (e.g.: Nicaragua, Cuba, Iran).

Edit: again, my point is that violent reaction against oppressive regimes is foolish and leads to the opposite of freedom. Violence is the authoritarians' favorite game because it provides them an excuse to do what they do best: brutal repression. You are already loosing when you play their preferred game.




>1) Rise of democracy in Latin America in the 70s and 80s (Argentina, Uruguay, Paraguay, Chile, Brazil)

i'm puzzled to say the least. Aren't the 70s and 80s were the bloody decades of dictatorships there? For example:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirty_War

"The Dirty War (Spanish: Guerra sucia) is the name used by the military junta or civic-military dictatorship of Argentina (Spanish: dictadura cívico-militar de Argentina) for the period of United States-backed state terrorism[1][2][3] in Argentina[4][5] from 1976 to 1983 as a part of Operation Condor, during which military and security forces and right-wing death squads in the form of the Argentine Anticommunist Alliance (AAA, or Triple A)[6] hunted down any political dissidents and anyone believed to be associated with socialism, left-wing Peronism or the Montoneros movement.[7][8][9][10]

Up to 30,000 people disappeared, of whom many were impossible to report formally due to the nature of state terrorism."


> i'm puzzled to say the least. Aren't the 70s and 80s were the bloody decades of dictatorships there? For example:

Yes, but they weren't the cause of the dictatorships' collapses. As I pointed they were actually an argument for their hardening.

By the time those dictatorships fell the guerrillas were mostly exterminated.

Again: my point isn't to deny that repressive regimes repress. It is to point that their collapse wasn't due to a violent reaction but a peaceful one.


The carnation revolution Portugal was not violent have you got those revolutions switched


AFAIK it didn't have any death but it was sparked by a military coup d'état by lower rank officials. Later on the people on the streets supported the officials and demanded democracy.

So, when guys with guns depose a dictator it gets a little harder to argue that it is very peaceful.

However I thank you for bring up the fact that there was no blood.


The fall of the( USA supported) fascist regime in Greece was not in fact bloodless.


And ?...

Again and again: my point is that the democratic forces opposing the dictatorship didn't engage in violence.

The violence in the crisis that led to the collapse of the dictatorship of Colonels was by the dictatorship itself and the war against Turkey.

All repressive regimes repress. My point is how the democrats should respond.


> Collapse of communism on Eastern Europe in the 80s and 90s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yugoslav_Wars 130000 dead

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanian_Revolution 1000 dead


The Yugoslav wars were mostly ethnic conflicts that happened after the collapse of communism, not exactly a democratic revolution.

I concede in Romania, but that is an atypical case. The overall case of collapse communism was peacefull: Poland, Hungary, East Germany, Czechozlovakia, Bulgaria, Albania, ...


No, the way to 1989 wasn't all that peaceful. For example there was the martial law and repressions against "Solidarity" during 198x in Poland. And you forgot the 1968. The resolve of the East Europeans in 1989 was pretty clear that if USSR brings in tanks the people will continue to stand up even in the face of the tanks, and it will be 1968 all over the place. The 1968 provided credibility to that. Thus the USSR and the regimes supported by it backed finally down.


We're falling into splitting straws on semantics here.

All repressive regimes repress, that's what makes them authoritarian. But a violent and successful reaction by the opposing/democratic forces implying a large number of deaths is actually quite rare. This is my point.


It was peaceful on the oppressed side. There's a reason why the Czech revolution of 1989 is called 'the velvet revolution'.




Consider applying for YC's Spring batch! Applications are open till Feb 11.

Guidelines | FAQ | Lists | API | Security | Legal | Apply to YC | Contact

Search: