You realize that not everyone in an organization would have agreed with not working with Nazi Germany either?
IBM literally sold them information retrieval technology they used to keep track of concentration camp inmates. So clearly the important decision-makers did not agree.
I guess it is like any other question of what an organization should do. Those with the power to make decisions will decide based on some combination of their own ethical standards or (more likely) what think they is "good for the business", where PR as well as employee morale are components of that. The employees without the power to decide directly can organize to try to convince those with the power to make decisions of the correct ethical choice, or of what's good for the business, or to try to change the calculus of what's good for the business by effecting PR and employee morale etc.
I mean, this is kind of just a description of how human organizations or collective decision-making works....
I personally think that what ICE is doing is absolutely immoral and unethical, putting people, including asylum seekers, into (yes I think it's appropriate language) concentration camps, without a trial or hearing or access to a lawyer, in unsafe conditions (covid makes this even more extreme), separating children from parents, etc. If we looked for an external arbiter of this, I think it also clearly violates international law and agreements on the rights of migrants and refugees, so that could be another argument, don't sell software to organizations that will use it to violate international law.
I personally wouldn't at this point call for github (or anyone) to avoid business with the federal governmetn entirely -- just to avoid your products being used for the programs that are violating international human rights. That is, avoid doing business with ICE, for sure. Maybe with DHS in general, or particular programs/units in DHS.
I can't make you agree. People disagree, this is part of human life. But if I were in github, I'd be working to convince other co-workers of this, and to convince decision-makers leaders of it, as those in the article are presumably doing (I still can't read the article because paywall, so I'm only guessing as I think most commenting are!) This is how humans in organizations work.
I think this is an important distinction that needs to be resolved in some legal means. many people have differing opinions on this, so having some systematic process is useful so we don’t end up wasting energy on a very loud minority.
This is a complex issue and it’s something that companies should be good at. In this case, having some systematic way of making this decision public is helpful to me in planning who to purchase services from. Some generic statement that the decision was “based on company values” (that can change at any time) makes it hard to predict future decisions.
This ambiguity over how products are run is a big part of how I struggle to predict what Google products will continue or be, arbitrarily to me, discontinued.
However pretending that a vocal minority trying to push an agenda isn't bypassing democratic decision making is ludicrous.
Of course decision making in companies is not democratic, but if as a partisan employee you're trying to impose your opinion instead of trying to implement some kind of democratic process to consult other employees anonymously then you are no different than any authoritarian movement.
I'm having trouble understanding your perspective on what's "anti-democratic".
As you note, neither github nor hardly any company has any kind of "democratic decision-making" at all. It's just not how companies work in America. So I don't understand hwo you can be "bypassing" something that doesn't exist.
When the executive and other decision makers at a company make decisions with no democratic decision making whatsoever, do you think that is "no different than any authoritarian movement"? Personally, I think saying it's "no different" is a bit much, it's a differnet in a bunch of ways -- but I think it's not great, I think we should work to put democratic decision-making in all companies. Do you agree?
In the meantime though, we don't have that. So what are people who want to have impact on the decision-making supposed to do? Even when there is democratic decision-making, it's considered normal to try to convince your fellow-decision makers of things. I don't understand where you are drawing the line between allowable ways to effect decision-making and "like an authoritarian movement". I mean, nobody's threatening anyone with violence, are they? What means of persuasion or pressure are according to you allowed, and what means are not?
It doesn't help that I don't think either of us has actually read the article, because it's behind a paywall? So I actually have no idea what methods or persuasion or pressure they are using. Do you know more than me? If so, feel free to tell me (ideally with a link to another article so I can get it from the source), and explain why you think those methods have crossed the line into "authoritarian"?
Since I don't know specificcally what they are doing, I can't really defend it specifically. Like, if they were beating people up who didn't agree with them, I'd definitely agree that's something authoritarian movements do! (I still don't think I'd agree it's "no different", there are always differences, that's a kind of lazy thing to say, "no different"). But I don't see any reason to think or assume they are doing that? Do you have more information than me? I'm confused why you are assuming they are using unethical methods, or even what you think those methods they are using are. Are you saying just that going to the press makes it "no different than any authoritarian movement", but if you just talked about it quietly inside the company that would be okay? That would seem an odd distinction to me.
I agree with you but what I'm trying to explain is that complaining about a topic instead of trying to implement a democratic system to do so is the same as ignoring other people's opinion because they weren't loud enough.
If they want their opinion to be taken seriously, they should setup democratic vote among employees to collect votes anonymously about the issue at hand.
Proceeding otherwise is simply trying to convince colleagues but also removes the possibility for other employees to have their voices heard anonymously.
That's just not how it works in the real world. Saying the only valid option for exerting pressure on your employer is "setting up a democratic vote" is basically saying you should give up on exerting pressure on your employer.
Fortunately, in fact, plenty of organized people have been taken seriously, and have effected change, through other means.
By possibly bypassing the majority's opinion.
Also called authoritarianism.
Putting pressure in a non-democratic way is silencing people's opinion and similar to censorship.
IBM literally sold them information retrieval technology they used to keep track of concentration camp inmates. So clearly the important decision-makers did not agree.
I guess it is like any other question of what an organization should do. Those with the power to make decisions will decide based on some combination of their own ethical standards or (more likely) what think they is "good for the business", where PR as well as employee morale are components of that. The employees without the power to decide directly can organize to try to convince those with the power to make decisions of the correct ethical choice, or of what's good for the business, or to try to change the calculus of what's good for the business by effecting PR and employee morale etc.
I mean, this is kind of just a description of how human organizations or collective decision-making works....
I personally think that what ICE is doing is absolutely immoral and unethical, putting people, including asylum seekers, into (yes I think it's appropriate language) concentration camps, without a trial or hearing or access to a lawyer, in unsafe conditions (covid makes this even more extreme), separating children from parents, etc. If we looked for an external arbiter of this, I think it also clearly violates international law and agreements on the rights of migrants and refugees, so that could be another argument, don't sell software to organizations that will use it to violate international law.
I personally wouldn't at this point call for github (or anyone) to avoid business with the federal governmetn entirely -- just to avoid your products being used for the programs that are violating international human rights. That is, avoid doing business with ICE, for sure. Maybe with DHS in general, or particular programs/units in DHS.
I can't make you agree. People disagree, this is part of human life. But if I were in github, I'd be working to convince other co-workers of this, and to convince decision-makers leaders of it, as those in the article are presumably doing (I still can't read the article because paywall, so I'm only guessing as I think most commenting are!) This is how humans in organizations work.