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> Almost.

What do you mean by almost? Just do it already. Then post all the imaginary/alternative stats here below.




How? It is impossible. The stats are too unreliable.

And that is why an oranges to oranges comparison can't actually be done.


> Almost. We'd need to compare actual homicides to an imaginary world where...

What do you mean how? Aren't you the one who came up with the suggestion in the first place? You go ahead and almost do it.

> And that is why an oranges to oranges comparison can't actually be done.

Classic straw-man argument. You just set up your own imaginary cooperative world of full of alternative stats, then shot it down immediately.


Well, I suppose I wasn't being entirely clear. Let me try to put it all in one post with vague apologies for letting the thread build up:

Your "oranges-to-oranges" comparison isn't. It compares homicides - which are overwhelmingly going to be negligent accidents or intentional crimes - with police caused deaths. The police are people we purposefully send into situations where violence is likely or respect for the law has broken down. It is expected that they will cause some deaths in the execution of their duty.

I can certainly see an argument that getting the deaths caused by police to 0 or close to is a worthy goal. But it isn't comparable to homicides because it is normal for the police to be sent in to uncontrolled situations. It'd be nothing short of a minor miracle if police-caused deaths were comparable to background rates given how seedy the US gets. We certainly can't get a feel for the justified/unjustified/negligent breakup of the figures which is germane to the debate.


Its unfortunately time to get philosophical, which is usually a signal to me that a debate has veered off the topic and become pointless. Anyway, here goes...

In philosophy, there is a subject and an object. An object is what the subject observes. An object consists of of properties (has-a) and relations (is-a). Take an orange for example. An orange is-a fruit, and an orange has-a rind, flesh and seeds. It makes sense to compare oranges with oranges (a type of fruit); and orange seeds with orange seeds (the same parts of an orange fruit). Its a stretch to compare an oranges with orange seeds, as they are not the same type of object. Or to put it another way, its like comparing oranges to apples.

> Your "oranges-to-oranges" comparison isn't.

It is, because I'm comparing instances of the same type of philosophical object. Lets take another very relevant example: homicide.

A homicide is simply defined as "the act of one human killing another". So comparing homicides done by policemen with homicides done by civilians, in the same year and country is a valid oranges-to-oranges comparison. Regardless of the circumstances of the homicides, they are all homicides whether justified (e.g. self defense), unjust (murder) or unintentional (man-slaughter). My comparison is not concerned with the parts of the orange (rind, seeds, flesh), but the oranges as a whole. If you'd like to compare police acts of man-slaughter against civilian acts of man-slaughter, that's fine. That's a valid oranges to oranges comparison, just on a lower level of the conceptual heirachy. And even if you did present these statistics, my original point still stands. You cannot however, come up with an invalid comparison (oranges to orange seeds) then try and use it as a straw-man argument against my valid comparison (oranges to oranges).




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