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The US is no5 in the world for police homicides, just behind countries like the Philippines, Syria, Brazil. Not a record to be proud of - 1,536 in 2019 according to wikipedia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforc...

Other countries manage to achieve numbers like 2 for Japan, 3 for the UK, 11 for Germany which is nowhere near even adjusted for population. American police kill more people per capita than almost every other country. Per 10 million people that's:

46.6 for the US

0.5 for the UK

0.2 for Japan



Do you think it's intellectually honest to compare countries with very, very low rates of firearms access to a country where firearms are available to anyone who wants one?

You're comparing the USA, which has about 100k shootings per year, 36k deaths involving guns of which 33% (~12k) are homicides, to the UK which has 50-60 cases of homicide involving a gun per year.

The fact is that the US police are far, far, far more likely to encounter a suspect with a gun in the course of their duty than the UK police are.

38 US police officers were shot dead in the line of duty last year. The UK had 3.

They're not equatable.


> 38 US police officers were shot dead in the line of duty last year. The UK had 3.

The UK has a population of 66 million people. The US has a population of 328 million. The UK has 123k police, the US has 687k.

They're not equal but I think you might be exaggerating the differences by comparing very differently sized countries.


Sounds like severely limiting access to guns in the US would be great place to start then.


Regardless of whether it's a good idea, it cannot be done.

I believe the last number I saw said there were about 300 million guns in the US - one for each person.

There's no way to just make those disappear into government hands.


300 million stat is old, I think now it's somewhere around 393 million. Coronavirus and the riots have also created far more new gun owners among a lot of people (making an observation from my friends and other people I know).


Of course there is. There are legitimate reasons for owning a rifle in rural America (hunting), there are no legitimate reasons for owning an assault weapon, and guns can easily be made gradually less attractive. If you don't accept this even as a possibility you are part of the problem.


The other major news story is about police brutality and defunding/reducing the police force.

Exactly how do you expect people to defend themselves from violent threats when the number 1 counterpoint of "call the police" is taken away or severely limited?


> defunding/reducing the police force.

The defund/dismantle/disband movement is, as I understand the movement, more about replacing the police-as-an-institution with a fundamentally different approach or set of approaches to law enforcement, not reducing the total resources or number of persons assigned to law enforcement functions.


What do you think that way (of the government collecting 300m firearms) might be?


The same way every other country has gone about this.

This has been done after wars for example (after WWII), and after many different conflicts in different countries in Africa. It would take a long time and would require tightening laws gradually and at the same time encouraging people to hand in their weapons.

This is not particularly difficult logistically, the only difficulty is in the American psyche apparently, which seems completely incompatible with this simple common-sense measure. The outcome would be fewer deaths by cop, fewer deaths in burglaries, and fewer mass shootings.

There is abundant evidence from around the globe that limiting the ownership of guns helps limit deaths.


No other country has anywhere near the absolute or per capita number of firearms that the USA has. We own almost half of all civilian firearms, more than 100x the US military, more than every military and law enforcement agency in the world combined[1]. Nor would a forced attempt at disarment be peaceful given our history and attitude towards government infringement.

Moreover, the Supreme Court has already ruled that total ban on firearms in common is unconstitutional[2][3]. Hence why DC and Chicago no longer completely ban handguns. I also don't think the in common use standard will hold since the Supreme Court more recently reiterated "the Second Amendment ex-tends, prima facie, to all instruments that constitute bearable arms"[4]. It is the opinion of some that DC v Heller was watered to get Kennedy on board. Moreover, as California has already argued, you cannot ban something then down the road argue that it's not in common use since the low numbers are artificial.

> To the extent that magazines holding more than 10 rounds may be less common within California, it would likely be the result of the State long criminalizing the buying, selling, importing, and manufacturing of these magazines. Saying that large capacity magazines are uncommon because they have been banned for so long is something of a tautology. It cannot be used as constitutional support for further banning. See Friedman v. City of Highland Park, Illinois, 784 F.3d 406, 409 (7th Cir. 2015) (“Yet it would be absurd to say that the reason why a particular weapon can be banned is that there is a statute banning it, so that it isn’t commonly used. A law’s existence can’t be the source of its own constitutional validity.”).[5]

[1] http://www.smallarmssurvey.org/about-us/highlights/2018/high...

[2] DC v. Heller 2008 https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/07pdf/07-290.pdf

[3] McDonald v. Chicago 2010 https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/09pdf/08-1521.pdf

[4] Caetano v. Massachusetts 2016 https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/15pdf/14-10078_aplc.pd...

[5] Duncan v. Becerra 2019 https://michellawyers.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Duncan-...


Actual looting has been occurring in New York [0] as we discover that the police either lack the willpower or resources to actually protect American businesses. And who knows what is happening for ordinary law-and-order problems.

If someone manages to carry a "disarm and leave it to the police" argument with that evidence in recent memory it will go down in the history books as one of the great political accomplishments of the 21st century. Anyone who ever argued in favour guns in self defence was talking at least in part about moments in history like these.

[0] https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/02/nyregion/nyc-looting-prot...


[flagged]


It's not crazy to understand that limiting firearm access to law abiding citizens will provide an upper hand to criminals who couldn't care less about breaking laws, with the number of firearms currently in the U.S.


This is the kind of thing that gun advocates like to tout as "a priori" knowledge. However, "criminals" respond to incentives just as all people do. You need to make the incentive to not own a gun stronger than the incentive to own a gun. Weak gun laws currently make it very easy to obtain a gun without any permits or background checks.

There's also a false dichotomy between law-abiding citizens and criminals. Anyone who has always been law-abiding can commit a crime, and if they own a gun, there's a much higher chance that someone is killed as part of that crime. There's a much higher chance they kill someone accidentally, and that someone is often a member of their own family. And a higher chance that they will successfully commit suicide. These are all facts when comparing gun owners to non-owners.


The government should disincentivize persons from owning guns no more than it should disincentivize persons from voting, from associating, or from speaking, etc.


Ok, how about if we compare to Canada? It sits at 9.7 per 10 million people.


By all means, suggest a better country to draw a comparison with.


Unfortunately, the US is incomparable (in the neutral sense of the word) when it comes to most socio-economic issues. There literally is no other country that is similar to the US across more than one or two important factors.


It would seem more appropriate to compare each US state with another country of similar statistics.


USA is very comparable to Brazil in every sense except perhaps GDP. For now.


Yeah, but GDP is one of the most important socio-economic factors there is. Which makes drawing analogies between the US and Brazil not very useful most of the time. And even race, where I think the comparison is most apt, there is an important difference, in that the US has more ethnic diversity among its elite class. I believe Brazil's elites are almost entirely descended from European Catholics, whereas the US elite class has been split between WASPs and Jews for at least 100 years and is now being cracked open quite rapidly by people of East Asian and South Asian descent.


US police: 687k UK police: 123k

US police killed: 38 UK police killed: 3

If the rate in the UK was the same as the US, 6 policeman would be killed when actually only 3 were killed (123*38/687).

So in the US police are about twice as likely to be killed, yet they kill 500x more people.

You're right, they're not equatable _at all_.


Yes I do. That easy access to guns on both sides is a big part of the problem. Militarised police and easy access to guns are IMO one of the biggest reasons for this discrepancy. It can be fixed, it just requires gradually tightening gun laws and changing police culture.

There are also cultural issues - policing should be with the consent of the population, if you lose that trust and end up in an adversarial position, violence moves from the last resort to the first resort.


To what do attribute the difference between US and UK police deaths? Do you think police brutality is the main factor?


In Europe in general police operate on the principle of “plice lives < civilian lives”. This means that you as a police officer do not shoot if you are threatened, you shoot only if _other civilions_ are threatened. Or put it another way your job is to protect civilian lives, even at the cost of your own life. As far as I understand in the us its the other way around - “police lives > civilian lives” - e.g. shoot when threatened directly. Or it is acceptable to kill civilians to save police lives.

In the long term that kind of doctrine is bound to have consequences on stats like deaths caused by the police, no matter how good / bad the intentions of individual officers are.

And it frames how the public reacts to events as well. Like if you are a cop and you shoot a person trying to rob a bank in the US your friends and family might congratulate you on a job well done, where as in europe you’ll be looked at with disdain by your loved ones.


Lack of guns and also a totally different attitude to policing.

British policing isn't without problems but the idea of (say) police barging into someone's house guns blazing without announcing themselves (as happened recently) is absolutely unimaginable in the UK.

British police operate on consent whereas American police operate on fear (is the stereotype)


What is the violent crime rates in those countries?

If there are more violent crime its understandable that there would be more police killings,


Guns


Not sure why you are getting downvoted. Guns are deadly weapons which are a problem in the US.


Guns are a tool not a reason.


Tool to kill yes




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