Right, because geeks should be fighting other geeks, for some mystery reason, rather than going somewhere where there is grown-up supervision, safety precautions and people who Know What They Are Doing.
Lousy technique - check. Out of shape guys - check. Amazing size mismatches - check. Hard floor so that the first time someone manages a decent throw or slam, someone can break something - check.
All of these 'Fight Clubs' I've ever seen usually revolve around a couple larger guys using this whole thing as a venue for somewhat sexually charged sadomasochism with their smaller buddies. There's a reason that they're not walking in the door of their local boxing/Muay Thai/MMA/BJJ club instead...
Sure, they sound melodramatic, cheesy and sentimental talking about their fight club. But at least they're out there doing it, venting, and participating in some mostly rules-free shenanigans.
And "sexually charged" is the condescending weenie's way of simultaneously saying the participants are closeted homosexuals, and that being gay is a bad thing.
Naysayers manage to anger me and tire me out, all at the same time.
> But at least they're out there doing it, venting, and participating in some mostly rules-free shenanigans.
This is unnecessarily dangerous. You can go to a Muay Thai class, train up for a few months and kick three shades of shit out of each other if you want to. The difference is that with experienced teachers who will show you how to avoid injuries, the likelihood of serious accidents goes down.
Exposing yourself to unnecessary risk when you have safe alternatives isn't manly, it's stupid.
> ...participants are closeted homosexuals, and that being gay is a bad thing.
No one said being gay was a bad thing. Repressing gay feelings and letting them out through violence on the other hand isn't so great IMO.
> Exposing yourself to unnecessary risk when you have safe alternatives isn't manly, it's stupid.
Sometimes it's OK to just be stupid, and uneducatedly kick the shit out of each other, as long as cries of "Uncle" are respected. The lack of framework and authority is important for some types of catharsis.
> Repressing gay feelings and letting them out through violence on the other hand isn't so great IMO.
My point is that whenever guys roughhouse, some chronic non-participant will always call it homoeroticism, and since that sounds like a good, intellectual reason to justify their nonparticipation, other bystanders will smugly agree. It's a cheap jab.
> Sometimes it's OK to just be stupid, and uneducatedly kick the shit out of each other, as long as cries of "Uncle" are respected. The lack of framework and authority is important for some types of catharsis.
To each his own I suppose. Actually I felt this when going from Kendo to BJJ. Kendo being a bit more traditional Japanese and regimented. It was incredibly refreshing being thrown into the deep end with seemingly little structure and to train to Cypress Hill and Slipknot.
Still, I'm of the opinion that a bunch of dudes kicking the crap out of each other in a garage is a step too far.
> My point is that whenever guys roughhouse, some chronic non-participant will always call it homoeroticism, and since that sounds like a good, intellectual reason to justify their nonparticipation, other bystanders will smugly agree. It's a cheap jab.
If you think it's OK to just be stupid in this context you have no idea what you're talking about. If they need catharsis, I suggest they beat up a pillow while screaming about their Daddy, or their ex-wife, or whatever their major malfunction is.
It stops being 'ok' and safe when you have a bunch of idiots who don't know what they're doing. For example, when one idiot heel-hooks another idiot and idiot #2 decides to tough it out (thinking a rotational leg lock can be resisted like an armbar for a while), idiot #2 is likely going to spend some quality time with a surgeon. When idiot #3 decides that a crucifix is a perfectly good takedown response because they saw it in the UFC, idiot #4 is going to spend two weeks with a funny feeling in his neck. etc. etc... I can populate this list out to about idiot #20 or so, striking and grappling. There are a lot of bits of the human body that just don't fix themselves; worth thinking about before trying this stuff on.
As for chronic non-participant, well, I've been rolling around in the guard and the mount with other guys since 1995 (Judo, submission grappling, BJJ) without any gay panic. And I've seen my fair share of creepazoid 'fight clubs' where there's 1-2 bigger guys who are (a) rubbish grapplers and (b) strangely interested in rolling with weaker, smaller, prettier guys, so it's not such a 'cheap jab'.
The likelihood of serious accidents goes down, but it doesn't go down to zero.
So choosing a no-rules barred fight club versus a boxing ring is a matter of line drawing, and judgement calls.
Many people draw the line at no fighting at all, and call all boxers "stupid". Is that fair? And if it isn't, why is it fair for you to call Fight Clubbers stupid simply because they're willing to expose themselves to more risk than you?
Fight Club isn't a direct equivalent of Boxing/Muy Thai/etc. with merely added risk of injury.
There are lots of ways to go about free climbing a rock face, and many ways to make it safer or more dangerous. Most climbers I know are extremely safety conscious and go to great length minimizing the risk they put themselves in.
Agreed. My family climbs outdoors probably 150+ days a year, including bouldering, sport climbing, and trad climbing. While I've done some things that some might consider dangerous, it really is about minimizing risk and being in control of the situation. Certainly, it is still dangerous, but, again, much of what we do attempts to minimize the danger.
I am far more fearful when I see people randomly scrambling without any regard for their situation. I've seen people get themselves in really bad situations because they don't assess things and think about consequences.
Sure, but it'd be a hell of a lot safer to climb up the back slope of a mountain or run around the block. My point is that everything has varying degrees of challenge, risk, thrill, etc and these 'fight club' guys have chosen theirs.
> But at least they're out there doing it, venting, and participating in some mostly rules-free shenanigans.
You're obviously starting from the viewpoint that this is a noble activity. That's not necessarily the case. Fight Clubs are romanticized, and who hasn't wanted to try to put one together after watching the film or reading the book, but it's only awesome until some guy shatters a cheekbone or something.
As the saying goes, the only place a gunfight is romantic is in a James Bond novel.
I actually started from the viewpoint that I hate all the hating that goes on around here sometimes, and worked backward from there. I don't feel strongly about fight clubs one way or the other.
Yeah. Your last paragraph. There's a massive difference between this kind of thing and going to an organised club where you have to take a swing at a stranger who has a good capacity to hand your ass to you.
I get what they're trying to do but there's no comparison between playfighting in someone's garage and training up as a boxer and sparring in a ring in terms of the benefits for your esteem and confidence (as well as fitness).
Also, I've done a fair bit of boxing in and out of clubs, and I'd _never_ swing on someone unless they had headgear and I was in gloves. If you know what you're doing, you understand a handful of landed punches is going to leave some decent damage on a person. The problem when you don't know what you're doing is you're just as likely to fluke a shot / not pull a punch up early enough from doing some serious damage.
Kudos in spirit, but just join a club and work with professionals ffs. You lose so many psychological and physical benefits taking this approach.
Ironically of course, headgear and gloves are known to be the reason more boxers are affected by long term problems than people who bare knuckle spar.
You also wouldn't hit someone in the head with your fist if you know what you are doing because you would probably shatter a knuckle, hence, historically, bare-knuckle bouts were about slowing and draining your opponents energy until they couldn't get up from heavy body blows than knockouts.
It allows you to absorb a larger number of heavy blows to the head without showing any outward damage. There is an argument that the risk of brain damage is therefor greater because the bouts go on longer. I personally haven't read any studies on the matter so I can't comment on the medical validity. In practice I prefer to fight without headgear. This is completely subjective but I feel sharper afterwards, whereas 6-8 rounds with headgear leave me foggy for a day or two.
It is interesting. Technically it should be the same amount of energy transferred but without localised damage (eg, concentration of force through a knuckle into an area of bone or tissue). The head will still be jarred, so your point is pretty solid.
Regardless, though, in this specific example - if one of these guys throws a stray fist to the mouth or jaw (not so much for body shots because they're not exactly doing much of a job of it), its likely to break something, and if they are boxing in a training only setting or socially they're not going to be taking enough blows for concussion / brain damage to be a real issue.
Why don't they go to their local Muay Thai/Boxing/etc. club and learn proper technique? And if you want to fight: Get into the ring. It's fun. Even if you get beaten up.
I've been doing Muay Thai for many years now and beside the workout, I got much closer to my cultural Thai roots. Martial arts is more than fighting. It's about personality building, respect and culture.
'Fight Clubs' like this are dangerous for the participants. They don't know how to hit and could get injured seriously. I just hope no trained fighter is ever going to participate in such a fight and gets serious.
There are many such 'fight clubs', not just for geeks, although those are most likely to videotape and post it to Youtube, I guess. It happens in garages across Europe (I have no reason to believe it is different elsewhere). It's just tough guy talking, to have a story to tell in the bar or club. I've been to many and in most places people just stand around to look tough, but avoid any actual workout or training. Any halfway skilled muay thai or bjj fighter (as in, 1/2 year of serious training) can take on 90% of the people in those sort of gatherings. I mean I'm 5ft9 and less than 170 pounds and I've relatively easily dominated people 1 foot taller and 50 pounds heaver, and I'm not even a good fighter.
I've seen people get knocked out by accidental swings and hits, and people throwing up because the intense activity of a 1m30s fight was too much for them. Some nose bleeds here and there, but I've never seen 'serious' injuries, mostly because people have no kicking technique, no grappling skills (no joint locks or arm/leg bars) and telegraph punches from miles away. One dude broke his hand punching someone else on a a hard part of the jaw. I don't think it's dangerous, just stupid.
As someone who practiced Kendo for just a while, the little scene where the guy swings a shinai around pretending to be what he thinks a samurai looks like was cringe-worthy and pathetic. If he ever does take up Kendo/Iaido, he will look back and regret it with the fire of a thousand burning suns.
Personally, I think hockey is a great outlet for developers (being one that plays of course). It is physically and mentally taxing, but most of all it requires teamwork; I can't think of anything that matches better. Sometimes you square off with someone on the ice and that's where it stays. When it does happen, it's far more raw than any staged combat -- I'll take that rush any day. Plus, you get a solid workout in the meantime!
Agreed. I'm a hockey player too. But hockey requires lots of years of practice and skill to get fun/good at. It's easier to just wack someone with a chair.
The Army's Best Ranger competition is a Eco-Challenge event. If you want to get in touch with the "essential nature of man" pit yourself against nature herself (like a week hike of the Sierra Ridge), preferably with a buddy, and you'll walk away with a whole new perspective.
That Wiki link is rather devoid of information about the Marathon des Sables... I would know, as I ran it in 2009. I'm not sure how the Foreign Legion factors into the race, as it was started by Patrick Bauer in 1986(who still oversees it).
People of all ages and from all walks of life participate in it. It's a life changing event in which you learn so much about yourself and develop deep friendships with people you've only known for perhaps a few days at most. The participants also suffer.. a LOT-between heat, physical exertion / exhaustion, and being fully self-sufficient for a week. It's a damn grueling event that definitely earns it's spot among the world's toughest foot races.
I understand, regarding the legion. I'm sure there are a lot of military folk who ran it. I know of at least one US Marine who ran it. There were a number of Rugby players and French firemen who were the talk of the town that year, too!
Ugh, 54 hours. I got hurt at the end of the first day and had to walk... and got really sick during the long stage which forced me to take frequent rests during the remainder of that and the marathon stage. As for me, I'm from the United States and trained in New Jersey. Hardly the conditions of the Sahara, but you make it work :)
If you asked me right after the race, I would've said no. I was in so much pain.. but about a month later I felt like I had to again. If you can pay the high entry cost(~$4,000 USD), it's worth it. I'm going to try to go back in 2013.
How does this differ significantly from self-mutilation (cutting)? Sure, if you feel your life is hum-drum it's easy enough to hurt yourself and to hurt others. To indulge in your violent instincts. It'll pump endorphins into your system and make you feel alive. So will cutting, and bulimia.
But these are very unhealthy outlets.
I see the fight club mentality as an indication of the dysfunctional nature of modern polite (or "politically correct") society which tends to write off violence and risk as aberrations and taboos. We see this in the ongoing trend of dis-empowering individuals (often in the guise of protecting them) and shifting responsibilities (and power) to organizations and corporations. The perfect example of this is the commonplace fear and hatred of firearms amongst most urban professionals.
This subject is too large to be addressed completely in a mere post or two. Suffice it to say that I think these "fight clubs" are a trend of men attempting to ape some perverted ideal of masculinity. A twisted masculinity of violence, domination, and disrespect.
>Suffice it to say that I think these "fight clubs" are a trend of men attempting to ape some perverted ideal of masculinity.
Like it or not, that's how evolution wired us. That's what used to work. I don't think it's unhealthy to have a consensual, controlled, relatively safe outlet for it.
Disclaimer: A few of my friends started something similar recently, though I haven't participated yet.
I've considered joining a Martial Arts gym, because I thoroughly enjoy the competition -- I wrestled all the way through High School.
However, I've convinced myself that it may be detrimental to my long term cognitive abilities. Do any HN martial arts participants have any insight into this? Can one really expect to repeatedly get hit in the head and not pay for it, long term?
The serious answer... I've been studying Kenpo, one of the most violent martial arts, for the past 2.5 years. Usually when you are sparring, there is a mutual level of respect. You aren't out there trying to kill each other, its not like an MMA fight on TV. It is also not like boxing, you are standing 2 feet away from each other just trading blows.
Most studios will let you sit and watch a class before signing up. If it looks like there are a couple of tough guys trying to take people's heads off, just walk away, it is not a good studio. Those types of lunk heads never last more than a few weeks in a real studio because after sparring with a more experienced student, they won't want to come back.
People get hurt, but it has never been from a shot to the head. In the vast majority of cases, the injuries are been self inflicted. A broken finger, a smashed shin, a broken toe, usually the result of poor technique due to frustration.
Professional Boxers and Professional rugby players. There's a big difference between trying out social / club style sports and going into amateur / pro boxing competitions.
So, it helps geeks relate with a larger part of mankind. That has to be something good, right? With a couple years of practice, they may even start enjoying reality shows...
Here are some responses I posted about this in the past here. Short answer, there is no evidence whatsoever that incidental full contact sparring has any cognitive effects.
"Well we don't know without analysis... Health concerns are mostly long-term, and there's no definitive answer on how much getting hit in the head is required for permanent brain damage. Re: concentration, I'm even less convinced; maybe it's not the getting hit that is bad for concentration but the switch between mental/physical activity. Or maybe concentration improves with more adrenaline."
"Yes, for boxing champions, but even there it's hard to say what is caused by the boxing and what is caused by genetic factors. People often say 'look at Ali!' but there's no way to tell if it's really because of the boxing. But more importantly, note that I said 'how much getting hit in the head is required'. See e.g.
Both from 2007. First one says that amateur boxers do get brain damage, second one says they don't. (there are the top google hits, I looked into this deeper about 5 years ago; at that time there was very little research done, let alone consensus.)
Point being, the question is: does getting hit in the head pose linear risks/ I.e, simplified, do a number of cells die for each punch or kick to the head? Or does it require a certain threshold of damage for there to be any cognitive effects?
I don't compete in any sport but I've trained plenty of full contact sports over the last 10 or 15 years. I've been punched and kicked in the face a lot, with and without gloves, been knocked out briefly once, been choked out several times. Still my head/brain has taken nowhere near the amount of punishment a pro or even good amateur fighter gets; my brains gets plenty of time between trainings to recover. I can never know for sure if my training has caused brain damage, and if it did, in what form that will manifest itself (or has already, maybe), but I don't have reasons to believe it affected my cognitive functions. Maybe it did and the damage caused decreased intelligence, making me believe that it didn't :)"
You only get hit in the head at matches, and only if you choose something where striking at the head is allowed. And even if you commit completely to your training, matches will be months apart.
Or just try starting with Bjj or something where there's no strikes to the head if you're worried.
I've been doing Muay Thai and Boxing for many years and I work on my master thesis right now (Neural Networks and Statistical Data Analysis). So no, it doesn't make you stupid or influences you in a bad way. Au contraire: It helps you build your personality and you will pursue you goal more ambitiously.
Also if you don't competet and only do light sparing you won't get hit hard in the head.
Well you can't conclude from your example that it didn't have any effects. Maybe you would have been smarter if you had only done ballet. I don't think so, that's not what I'm arguing, just that one cannot draw a conclusion from your anecdote.
There are many martial arts in which you don't get hit in the head, as a rule (accidents can happen, of course). Judo, for example, and Aikido in particular.
Hitting each other with a keyboard? Now days, that's just funny (the keyboard probably took the worst of it). Back in the 80's, that would have been assault with a deadly weapon. Back then, keyboards had massive steel frames, "suitable for cracking a managers skull", as it says in the jargon file :-)
A tightly rolled newspaper or magazine can be an effective weapon; some schools of escrima or arnis demonstrate how to roll one and use it as a substitute for the short stick.
"In Silicon Valley we have the highest concentration of aggressive people in the United States."
Really? More than Fort Hood, Camp Lejeune, or the Louisiana State Penitentiary? What about New York City? I suspect that SV, in fact, has one of the highest concentrations of beta males in the US, and this club is an over-compensation mechanism.
lol, I think this is a parody. Just something a bunch of nerds got together and threw together and is being taken too seriously. Meh just my opinion though, it very well might be for real.
yeah, that is retarded. getting exercise is good. exerting yourself is good. even learning some kind of self defense is good. but that is just completely retarded.
speaking as someone who DID get in a lot of fights growing up, the "it lets me know I'm still alive" thing is ridiculous; there are so many ways to enjoy life without beating the shit out of someone or having someone beat the shit out of you.
take up martial arts, or rock climbing, or an actual sport.
Lousy technique - check. Out of shape guys - check. Amazing size mismatches - check. Hard floor so that the first time someone manages a decent throw or slam, someone can break something - check.
All of these 'Fight Clubs' I've ever seen usually revolve around a couple larger guys using this whole thing as a venue for somewhat sexually charged sadomasochism with their smaller buddies. There's a reason that they're not walking in the door of their local boxing/Muay Thai/MMA/BJJ club instead...