I’ve flown in many an E190/195 and almost as many E170/175 that I can specifically recall. The small size of the cabin is a large negative for many people. Carry on bags don’t fit near as well; the galley is small so food service is weak; for people afraid of flying, the living room experience in a 787 or A380 is far superior. I didn’t find cabin noise levels to be especially pleasant (nor unpleasant) in the small Embraers, but they’re amazingly nice in the 787 and even a step better on the upper deck on the 380.
I fly small piston aircraft for a lot of our travel, so even an A319 or MD90 is top luxury in some sense.
I don’t think people generally feel like they’re “settling” in a 737. I just got off a 737-800 BOS-ATL in fact. I do feel like I’m settling when I strap on an E170/175 on a short haul flight. I put them as clearly superior to Saab 340s and Dash-8 aircraft, but that’s about it. It makes taking the train (Amtrak!) seem worthy of consideration for BOS-PHL type trips.
I can understand your points, but they seem a little odd in the context of where the A220 or E190/195 might be used. You won't find 787 or A380 aircraft flying most of the routes where these smaller aircraft will fly.
On many of these routes the 737 is over provisioned and Boeing is not really winning the deals on the merits. You can see Boeing cozy up further with Embraer since that's been on the cards for a long time and then they'll be able to offer something other than the 737.
I just flew in a KLM E190 "CityHopper" and the seating was significantly more spacious than recent 737ng experiences. Seat layout allows for large carry ons under the seats. No problem. 2x2 rows means football players don't get stuck in a middle seat. I also noticed the E190 noise level was lower than 737.
I took one once and I was blown away by how smooth it felt in flight.
Airbus are nervous, jiggly and constantly jittering along as the avionics happily acknowledges the plane is within envelope. Boeing planes feel more damped and they don’t remind me of my flight stress as often.
But the Embraer?! I flew one over the English Channel, windy and all that; and yet, it sailed along gently.
Hmm...I fly frequently (every month) on either Boeing or Airbus planes and but for the seat pocket card I'd be hard pressed to identify one from the other.
As the other comment mentioned, I also can't notice the difference between a A320 and 737, although flown on both massively. Of course, weather has a great influence. The worst turbulence in my life was over North Macedonia on a flight to Greece and from Stockholm to Oslo, both in a 737 (300 and 800). But I can't relate that to the aircraft, the weather was poor.
But I'm convinced I can feel the difference between them and the A321. Maybe because of the lengthy fuselage, but it always feels much more comfortable.
Honestly this might just be the KLM part. Recently flew a very short flight between Berlin and Amsterdam (don't remember if 737 or a320, but definitely one of them), paying for extra legroom... When I got on the plane I couldn't tell the difference between extra legroom seats and regular seats very easily (cos they were all relatively spacious). Was also the most I've felt a flight to be "just like a bus" in my life (smoothest takeoff/landing I'd had in a long time and smooth operations)
For me seat width matters more. The A320 inner fuselage is more than 6 inches wider than a 737, which means an A320 will be able to offer up to an additional inch of seat width. An airline may chose to split the allowance between seat width and aisle width, but an A320 will almost always have the seat width advantage.
I've always found A320s more comfortable. It's a big reason why Jet Blue and Virgin are generally much more comfortable than Southwest or other 737-based carriers. For seat pitch the thickness of the seats can matter, so the fact that Jet Blue and Virgin had more modern, thinner seats mattered for legroom. And of course you can add and remove rows. But thinness doesn't matter for seat width and everybody uses 6 abreast rows, so there's little a 737 carrier can do to make up the difference.
The 737MAX carries forward this handicap (737 has a circular fuselage while A320 is more elliptical), so Airbus will continue to have the leg up in this regard for the foreseeable future. Newer planes like the C-series provide even greater width[1], and considering the C-series is basically Airbus now that's just more reason to prefer Airbus when booking. Indeed, given that most 777s have been converted to 10-abreast seating in coach[2], I'd prefer an A320 (or preferably a C-series, though I haven't flown one, yet) over any Boeing plane if flying coach.
[1] The configurations so-far have been 18.5" for window and aisle, and 19" for the middle seat. 19" is like business class on Boeing planes! Compare that to a 737 where the typical seat width is 17". That's a huge difference, especially if you're traveling alone and are the conscientious type (i.e. avoid rubbing shoulders).
[2] From the originally envisioned 9-abreast configuration. Apparently the 777X is being designed for 10-abreast and will more seat width as compared to the 777, but I'll be surprised if it provides better width than a comparable Airbus plane. Boeing seems singularly focused on the demands of the big American carriers, and they couldn't care less about coach comfort.
Yes, this. I fly about 200k miles a year (mostly US, some international). I'm 50 years old, but I have an athletic build - very wide shoulders. I'm 6'2", but the width is much more important to me than leg room. I'm upgraded to first class a lot b/c of my status, and the only thing I care about is the seat width -- not the service, not the food, not the free alcohol, not the thicker upholstery.
My shoulders literally protrude into my neighbors' personal space, and I can't do anything about it. Even if I wasn't as athletic, my frame is built that way. Sucks for them, sucks for me.
As a thin American who observes many corpulent Americans flying, I would think seat width would be a big issue. but then I see large people squeezing into small seats and realize that my screams of protest are in vain.
Carry on. thanks at least for bringing up the topic, it's a real thing.
I agree on the seat width being important (I'm both overweight and tall) - this is why I avoid exit seats on the "nicer" airlines (since that usually means the tables/screens are stored/flipped-out from the armrest --> narrower seats) - but on budget airlines this is usually not the case. (at least in the EU/Middle East region)
But the nicer airlines offer general legroom's that's survivable - some budget airlines my knee is basically in somebody else's back (thinner seats help here).
But is this because it is KLM or because you are paying more in general compared to other airlines?
In the last 6 months I traveled between Amsterdam - Bangkok twice (11 hour flights) both times using KLM, and although they aren't as cramped as some other (cheaper) airlines I upgraded my seat every single flight to get a bit more leg room. But I can't compare to other (premium) airlines yet.
That's an interesting point which is probably something the manufacturer can accommodate to some degree with their configurations.
Generally my experience is that US carriers will select the cheapest and densest configurations, especially for domestic routes, including Hawaii. They've been applying this to transatlantic routes recently as well, but I think they'll do this globally as refits occur. It all fits with the pattern of a race to the bottom that is horrible for customers and staff that turn up every day to get us safely to our destinations.
I think EU and other global carriers are at a different stage on the race to the bottom. There is still some differentiation between national and budget airlines. There are consumer protections and regulations that US air travelers could only dream of. In terms of outlook, I see these comforts diminish with future recessions and pressures on the airlines.
The main difference is that the low-budget in EU is much more aggressive, to the point where IMO there's not much sense in racing to the bottom with them; you'd never beat them on cost. And European consumers are more willing to put up with crappier flights because (Western) Europe is so much smaller; Lisbon to Berlin is under 4h. Plus the high speed rail is available as an additional competitor, so national airlines have to differentiate there as well.
The major American carriers mostly compete with each other and Southwest.
A lot of issues with cabin space is down to configuration. I find Southwest much more comfortable than a similar model on Delta, because Southwest has their seats all slightly further apart than the economy seats on a Delta flight.
As a person quite afraid of flying I've never had the opportunity to fly with a 787 or A380 because I've never taken flights longer than 3 hours, and as such I don't care one bit about wether the A380 or the 787 are better for people who are afraid of flying (such as I am) because they are not an option for me. I do care though if the E190/196 or the A220 feel nicer on the inside compared to the A320 or the 737, because I ride these latter two type quite regularly (my preference is for the A320 over the 737, but that's just subjective, of course).
> for people afraid of flying, the living room experience in a 787 or A380 is far superior
Especially in economy, I find this to be moot - seats are crammed in at near DVT-inducing density regardless of the size of the fuselage.
I've flown in 787s and A380s numerous times. I'm also mildly claustrophobic, and I've never had a "living room" experience, even when flying business or first (TBF, I've only done so twice, both times with BA; it might vary for some carriers)
BA business is not representative of a good business class though, they cram you 8 wide with their herringbone layout which is just insane for a "premium" product.
Yes, the chairs are relatively comfortable, and if you're just going to sleep it's OK (especially with the BA arrivals lounge at Heathrow meaning you don't need to wake up for breakfast on the flight) but after being the trailblazers with lie flat seats BA have really dropped the ball compared to their competitors.
Frightened flyers do not sleep on planes. Who is going to supervise the pilot, assess the nervousness of the crew, wonder what that bing-bong means, and listen for strange engine noises if we are asleep? We would have to tear our eyes away from the "is this nightmare almost over" diagram of the plane's progress.
Another important, yet often overlooked duty for nervous flyers is monitoring the engine sound. Signs of trouble are when it's loud, too soft, or too grindy. I also find pilots frequently slow the plane down too much on initial descent.
I meant I'd only flown first twice, both times with BA. I've flown business many times, across a few carriers (although mostly BA). Never have I had a "living room experience" though!
As long as it's one of their newer planes, I find BA's business to be "good enough"; the food is invariably shite, the service is usually shite, but the wines are decent and you can sleep, But you're correct it's not as good as others (e.g. Singapore Airlines).
The couple of times I flew first with BA, I have to say I was mightily dissapointed - no way was it worth twice the price of business... it was barely any better at all. Luckily they were free upgrades!
TBH, all of BA feels like it's stagnated for 1-2 decades, and is slowly becoming a budget airline - but without the budget prices.
>But you're correct it's not as good as others (e.g. Singapore Airlines).
Yep, I just flew twice on Singapore Airlines, on 777s, and it was excellent, even in the economy section. Service was fantastic, food was fantastic (for airline food), I couldn't complain.
I think, at this point in time, the Asian and Middle Eastern airlines are what you want to fly on, because the American and European ones mostly suck. Some of the European ones are still supposed to be pretty good (like KLM I think), but all the American ones are horrible, and many of the European ones don't have the greatest reputations either (e.g. RyanAir).
Personally I prefer a noisy plane to a quiet plane. With a noisy plane you basically have white noise washing out the sound of all the other passengers having conversations, sniffling, snoring, crying, etc. I'd rather listen to the engines than to other people.
Maybe that is a legitimate concern for flight attendants, but I totally reject there being any measurable impact on my hearing from riding in a 737 a few times a year. Particularly when I also do other activities like walking down sidewalks next to traffic, which is typically louder and very often MUCH louder (every time an emergency response vehicle drives by blaring a siren which incidentally incorporates white noise.)
Headphones and earplugs are uncomfortable when worn for several hours in a row, either because they are inside my ears, or because they are bulky. This is a matter of comfort, particularly since I try to pass time on planes by sleeping. A noisier commercial airliner, all else being equal, simply is more comfortable than a quiet one.
(I dare say sleep loss and jet lag have a more measurable impact on my health than whatever hearing loss is induced by a typical commercial airliner.)
Traffic noise is usually much more intermittent, unless you're walking next to a busy freeway. You just hear cars as they go by, but it's not usually a constant. Ears handle intermittent sounds much better than constant noise, even when the intermittent sounds are much louder. It's a lot like radiation exposure: it's cumulative.
>A noisier commercial airliner, all else being equal, simply is more comfortable than a quiet one.
Honestly, you sound like someone who already has a lot of hearing damage.
I fly small piston aircraft for a lot of our travel, so even an A319 or MD90 is top luxury in some sense.
I don’t think people generally feel like they’re “settling” in a 737. I just got off a 737-800 BOS-ATL in fact. I do feel like I’m settling when I strap on an E170/175 on a short haul flight. I put them as clearly superior to Saab 340s and Dash-8 aircraft, but that’s about it. It makes taking the train (Amtrak!) seem worthy of consideration for BOS-PHL type trips.