That is why there is an expectation of you paying attention. Including during a red light. That means not using your phone.
I can assure you, if you are using your phone at a red light, it takes more than 0.01 seconds to notice the change in light, put the phone down, look at the street in front of you to make sure there isn't anything new since the last time you looked and go. In fact, if it took you the 0.01 seconds you say, it would literally be impossible for someone to honk you in time before you take off. The amount of time quoted is mind mindbogglingly small.
I don't get honked at. When I'm at a red light, I'm paying attention. If I need to use my phone, I pull over. Therefore, when a light changes I generally move along as quick as possible. If for some reason something falls in my car, I'm having a conversation with someone next to me or I get distracted (happens once or twice a year) and someone honks, I defer to them, since I know I'm in the wrong by not being on the ball.
I defer because I have no entitlement over the time of the person behind me. I'm not making up excuses saying how little time it is. I understand it's wrong of me to impose on them unnecessarily. Using your phone while driving is not
necessary. It's all very logical. Basically:
My pleasure < Their Right to not have people impose on their time.
I always find it strange when an issue isn't addressed but instead denied by making it seem small (generally with gross underestimations). I remember a coworker once got fired for stealing a box of pens. When caught he claimed "I didn't steal, it was just a box of pens! It's basically worth nothing." - I think the boss actually fired him for giving that argument instead of owning the issue.
* Exceptions could be made for checking the traffic in GPS or some other activity that aids driving (knowing you need to change lanes with advance notice is important). Checking messages emails isn't one such activity, though I've seen a lot of friends and colleges do it much to my chagrin.
> I always find it strange when an issue isn't addressed but instead denied by making it seem small
That's not what I was doing at all. I was calling your standard impossibly high, using an intentionally minuscule number to show that every driver violates the idea that "any amount of time[...]isn't cool"
And obviously if you waste so much time you get honked at you've done something wrong. So far I've avoided being honked at for that reason.
But there are ways to use a phone that don't waste time! If you keep the cross light in view and put the phone down when it turns yellow, that's plenty of time to focus on the road situation.
Except... you are arguing against a cartoon of what I said. You even intentionally edited it out to make it seem like I am being unreasonable. I'll post your quote with the missing part included:
"amount of time needlessly"
Needlessly. An important part of what I said. If you aren't wasting peoples time needlessly, you are within my standard. Therefore, my standard isn't unrealist.
Let's be clear about the chain of events:
mikepurvis complains about cell phone use during red lights.
tasty_freeze posts saying: why is this an issue
rconti tries to take a middle ground by saying 'he does the phone checking at a red light to, but he is highly consious of other people and he notices that many who check it during a red light aren't as concious and implores other people to be so. He explains the chain effect of how a few seconds of your delay can cause several minutes of delay to other people.
Dylan16807, you, post how this knock on effect would only happen if there were 'more than a hundred people stopped directly behind' (as if that is impossible) Furthermore you state:
"And that's assuming the entire pack of cars doesn't just catch back up to the one in front of you, where you had to wait anyway, dropping the actual time loss back to about zero"
Which sounds a hell of a lot like denial through minimizing. So I post saying:
"even if it is 'about zero'... any amount of time needlessly taken from other humans against their consent isn't cool right?"
It seems like a statement you seem to agree to but haven't stated as much.
Instead, you edited my words to try and prove the point that I have 'unrealistic expectations'.
To me, it sounds like you feel like arguing. Though I might be missing your point, so feel free to clarify what that point is and how it is relevant to the chain of communication as originally posted and recaped on this post.
> Which sounds a hell of a lot like denial through minimizing.
At that point I was just calling out an exaggeration, which is not the same thing as denial. It might be possible in a very niche case, but "if you ever" portrays it as a typical result.
> So I post saying: "even if it is 'about zero'... any amount of time needlessly taken from other humans against their consent isn't cool right?"
You interpreted "about zero" in a different way than I meant it. You seemed to take it as a small amount in every case, when I meant that it could often actually be zero.
The difference is important, because you can make an argument that a small delay harms someone, but you can't make an argument that zero delay harms anyone.
> It seems like a statement you seem to agree to but haven't stated as much.
I agree that small delays can be harmful, but there's a threshold before I think we can assign blame.
> Instead, you edited my words to try and prove the point that I have 'unrealistic expectations'.
I'm sorry I omitted words. The omitted words don't change my argument. If you think they do, I think you're misunderstanding the argument.
"You do realize even if it is 'about zero'... any amount of time needlessly taken from other humans against their consent isn't cool right?"
Every time someone drives they waste some amount of others' time needlessly. Everyone, always.
When you said "any", were you using it in a non-literal sense? Or do you think other wastes of time are not "needless"?
If you answer "no" to both of those, then I think your standard is impossible, and you're holding phone-users to a higher standard than everyone else.
I'm really not trying to distort your view. If I'm still not understanding something, it's not on purpose, and I really welcome correction.
Please believe me. I did not have any intent to distort your statement when I removed those words. I did it to make it clearer what words I was focusing on. To me, "waste" implies "needlessly" in this context.
-
And then entirely separate from that, I assert that it's possible to use a phone while stopped without causing any delay, if done right.
Needlessly, definition: in a way that is unnecessary because it is avoidable.
Therefore this statement:
> every time someone drives they waste some amount of others' time needlessly
Is absolutely incorrect. Following good driving techniques means no needless wasted time happens when driving. By the very definition of the word needless. Anything that is within good driving techniques is needed. By the very definition of good driving techniques.
Since cell phone use to check messages (the point which you are answering to) is not needed to operate a motor vehicle, IF time is wasted on this (again, the point you are literally hitting reply to), any amount, it is a needless imposition on other people. As someone who can communicate effectively pointed out, this has a knock on effect. (again, the point you are replying to)
Using words by their actual meaning helps communication. Playing games and saying 'driving is not needed' is a silly ego defense that doesn't further the understanding of reality and the finding of truth. Especially because there are people who clearly need to drive. And the who point that was being made was 'when driving', not if driving is needed.
This is all very basic.
BTW, in the middle of the hair splitting defensive posting, you forgot to clarify what the point you were making when replying to rconti - because that is the topic we are supposed to be on.
I am not getting any deeper into a semantics argument.
> you forgot to clarify what the point you were making when replying to rconti - because that is the topic we are supposed to be on
"At that point I was just calling out an exaggeration, which is not the same thing as denial. It might be possible in a very niche case, but "if you ever" portrays it as a typical result."
I think that's about all I have to say so uh good luck in life!
That is why there is an expectation of you paying attention. Including during a red light. That means not using your phone.
I can assure you, if you are using your phone at a red light, it takes more than 0.01 seconds to notice the change in light, put the phone down, look at the street in front of you to make sure there isn't anything new since the last time you looked and go. In fact, if it took you the 0.01 seconds you say, it would literally be impossible for someone to honk you in time before you take off. The amount of time quoted is mind mindbogglingly small.
I don't get honked at. When I'm at a red light, I'm paying attention. If I need to use my phone, I pull over. Therefore, when a light changes I generally move along as quick as possible. If for some reason something falls in my car, I'm having a conversation with someone next to me or I get distracted (happens once or twice a year) and someone honks, I defer to them, since I know I'm in the wrong by not being on the ball.
I defer because I have no entitlement over the time of the person behind me. I'm not making up excuses saying how little time it is. I understand it's wrong of me to impose on them unnecessarily. Using your phone while driving is not necessary. It's all very logical. Basically:
My pleasure < Their Right to not have people impose on their time.
I always find it strange when an issue isn't addressed but instead denied by making it seem small (generally with gross underestimations). I remember a coworker once got fired for stealing a box of pens. When caught he claimed "I didn't steal, it was just a box of pens! It's basically worth nothing." - I think the boss actually fired him for giving that argument instead of owning the issue.
* Exceptions could be made for checking the traffic in GPS or some other activity that aids driving (knowing you need to change lanes with advance notice is important). Checking messages emails isn't one such activity, though I've seen a lot of friends and colleges do it much to my chagrin.