I think it's pretty different.
- It doesn't have a public application process. You can only be referred by someone in the network.
- It doesn't require you to move anywhere. You can work from your home country/city.
- It doesn't have a formal 3 month program with mentorship and dinners. It's a 1+ year stunt, with a quarterly weekend retreat where you get to present your achievements and get tons of feedback and mentorship.
- It doesn't give you $15-20k for 6%, but instead matches your annual salary with caps at 90k, 140k and 190 if you are a 1, 2 or 3 person team respectively. HackFwd always gets 27% equity, and you are required to give away 3% to advisors/referrers.
It's a new approach to investing, and very very new having launched just 6 months ago.
I think it's pretty different. - It doesn't have a public application process.
Why is this a good thing?
It doesn't give you $15-20k for 6%, but instead matches your annual salary with caps at 90k, 140k and 190 if you are a 1, 2 or 3 person team respectively.
In NYC, I'd expect three competent software engineers to be making ~400k. That's a 50% salary cut (it's livable, but certainly leaves room for competition). In other parts of the world, this would obviously be different... maybe you should adjust it for cost of living?
HackFwd always gets 27% equity, and you are required to give away 3% to advisors/referrers.
So your valuation of an idea ranges from ~$330k to ~$700k, based only on the number of founders? If the % equity is constant, doesn't that encourage an applicant to always come up with three founders, even if one of them ends up dropping out and not taking any equity?
1) I am stating facts. I said it's different.
2) Europe is not NYC and a 40k salary for a software engineer seems to be fair. Your comment makes no sense at all. They are not funding companies in the States, and are adjusting the salaries based on eu countries.
3) That's quite a mindset you have. And the answer is no. Because if I go alone I get 70% and they still fund me, if I go with another founder I get 35% and if I go with two cofounders I get 23%. Plus would you go through all the hassle you just imagined for 50k more and then let everyone see what kind of person you are?
Bah.
Very interesting. It seems to me like this approach responds to some of the points people have made about potential entrepreneurs who don't fit YC's profile.
I am the founder of a HackFwd backed Company, but we just started this month. Of course its not cheap for founders with a good prototype, but the landscape in Europe is very different from the US. You dont have a lot of Angel Investing in Europe and VCs often only start at 500K EURs...so they are really filling a gap here, which is pre-seed/seed funding.
Besides the money you get to know some of europes best and most successfull entrepreneurs who might make finding a Series A funding much easier as if you were on your own.
You could also view it as a very special 1 year program in entrepreneurship because they teach you alot of things. We are really happy and look forward to the ride!
Our project wouldnt be able to take off with the money Y-Comb provides because its just too complex for that, heck we even invested twice that amount of our own money before getting HackFwd funding. If you have a pretty simple product and can show its potential with 20k$ and score a Series A, then YComb is probably a better fit but moving to the US from Europe for 20k$ wasnt an option for us anyway.
If you get accepted you will also be a referrer for the program, that way they want to built a big network of passionate founders/entrepreneurs in the future. Sharing knowledge is a big part of that and founders can say "Thank you" to anyone in the HackFwd network with the 3% equity reserved for that. You can also view most of their great talks at the quarterly events at http://www.passionmeetsmomentum.com
I think the most important point there is that the European start-up environment is just simply very different that the U.S. that's something I don't totally understand being a U.S. citizen and not having traveled much in Europe but makes complete sense in looking at the difference in structures.
A friend of mine just signed on as one of their referrers. It seems like a cushy big VC. They fly the referrers out to expensive resorts a few times a year and in exchange the referrers give HF a heads up on all the cool people and projects they know about. The goal seems to be providing a framework for people who wouldn't otherwise do a startup. I can't leave my family, I need a salary, I'm just afraid, I'm not motivated enough.
Whereas YC and the US scene is all about entrepreneurship, Europe (in general--there are lots of great startups there but it's no SF Bay) has more trouble getting hackers to take the plunge. HF seems to take the approach that they'll take a huge equity stake in the idea rather than a specific company and then pay you for a year to develop it. It's not clear that you'd have to do a real startup, they might just get someone else to do that once you've built substantial IP. I think the goal is to basically bring all the people who MIGHT produce something of value into one place, pay them like employees, and be a European Google in the sense that they'll try lots of projects and the ones that succeed will pay for the others.
It's not a program I'd ever be interested in, but I'm not European or afraid of risks, and I applied to YC. It may work really well in that culture, should be interesting to check back in a year or so to see how they're doing
i wouldnt generalize it like that. It doesnt really matter to them if you have a startup already or still a job and a prototype. The important part is that you have already built something to show and are passionate about it. They also form regular companies and they dont tell you how to spend your money or anything like that. They have very good financial advisers that develop a budget with you upfront and then its the job of the CEO of that startup to make it work. The companies are real startups, they just help you alot setting everything up, but in a very transparent way.
And in regards to "they fund people who MIGHT produce something that is successfull"...isnt that how any VC or Investing company works ? Even YC works like that, its just that their risk and money involvement is much smaller.
My primary objection is that they seem to be focused on acquisition of nascent talent and ideas in an attempt to corner the market on potential startup developers without a clear plan about what to do with them. The amount of money and perks going out to everyone involved both lessens the pressure to succeed and suggests a focus on acquisition instead of development. Of course everyone's there to make money and successful ventures support others but it seems like advisors are filling the roles of VC partners without appropriate remuneration and founders are being treated like employees. I don't like the value relationships all around, it doesn't seem like they help build successful companies, just cherry pick ideas and products in exchange for a salary. That doesn't seem good for the European tech economy or those who would otherwise become real founders on their own. It seems like they're trying to do an even earlier stage acquisition than companies like google have moved into, but without offering the future google does. Again, it might work there, but it's not something I'd want to be a part of or what I'd like to see long term in Europe. If it's a stopgap measure to keep talent there and in a few years a stronger community exists to help startups develop, then that's great.
i dont really know where you got that aquisition idea from, but thats not what they want to do. The core message is that they want to help Hackers build a business, without them needing to worry too much about setting up the business and giving them good advice over the course of a year. Problems/Changes etc are discussed in quarterly meetings, foudners get high quality feedback and can work on their product.
The goal is still getting another round of financing if the concept proves to be successfull but with that amount of money some startups will even have the chance to walk on their own without further funding.
I dont see whats wrong with that, and i also dont see much difference with Angel investing for example. In fact many successfull angel investors work together with their early stage startups to make them succeed, thats exactly what HackFwd does, just on a bigger scale. If you need more funding, they will prepare you for that, if not, fine.
Potential startups still have to have a good prototype, have to deliver a good pitch and ultimately get accepted which is how it works for any other investment vehicle basically. It is much harder to get early stage funding in Europe, so the existence of companies like HackFwd is a great thing for the tech economy imo.
As far as I'm aware they're both different, Difference Engine founder Jon Bradford is the MD of Springboard, but I believe they're both going to continue independently of each other.
Thanks all for this fruitful discussion, making this a top story on hackernews. Europe is very different to the US, we wanted to create an secure environment to help geeks to start their own companies. Compared to the US, in europe investment in super early tech is very rare.
Please judge us by our output, we are committed to create with HackFwd a new way of starting tech companies in europe.
OK, maybe I'm biased against Europeans, I don't know the landscape, etc. etc. But just compare and contrast their web page with YC's. YC's is succinct, to the point and no-nonsense. It carries the air of someone who doesn't have to prove anything.
A look at this website, though turns you off, with the wannabe photos and titles like X Geek. And trying to get 27% by pushing around the tired notion of "Europe is different" in this age and time, where bootstrapping is so common and many incubators like YC are multinational? That's insane. Wasn't there a post from a YC applicant from Greece on HN just a couple of days ago?
I'm originally from Europe and looking at examples like this makes me really pessimistic. Instead of hiding behind "it's different" excuses, the founders should have made "We're gonna be 10x better than YC" their motto.
And one last thing: Just as all free Google services funnel users to their search where they make money, YC has HN as the breeding ground of ideas and startups. Everybody knows that this is what makes YC so successful. You probably should try to start a similar environment.
Giving up 30% of your company seems like a lot to me but I'm sure there will be plenty of takers. The maximum funding you can get in return is fairly high (at least compared to YC):
My concern is that the 30% will be rejected by VCs when doing your first round, and will force you to recapitalize to something more reasonable for the founders. At least that's what good VCs in the US would do, but this being Europe, who knows.
Hi all, I'm the founder of the first UK company to be invited onto HackFWD and speaking for myself and my two co-founders I can safely say we're absolutely delighted to be on board. Since our first contact with David, the "Talent Geek" we've been treated absolutely fantastically and have been humbled by the level of support received. The join process was very straight forward, fast and informal, which allowed us to remain entirely focussed on developing our product without the worry of jumping through hoops X Factor style.
Reading the comments here and previous comments from other articles, it seems that most people consider 27% equity to be too large a chunk to give away. Of course everyone will have different opinions on this, but our reaction was positive. We felt that the larger equity stake would encourage the investor to really support our growth, rather than looking for a quick flip in a few months time. We're working hard to build a really awesome product here with long term goals and so the opportunity to have 12 months of support from some of the most respected tech people this side of the Atlantic was a no brainer.
Had we not taken the investment and continued to bootstrap, our project may never have gotten off the ground - juggling client work which always took priority made it almost impossible to get any focus. Our logic implied that 73% of a multi million pound company supported by hugely experienced technology and business strategists was a whole lot better than 100% of a half baked idea and ongoing client hassle. Now, we're entirely focussed on building something awesome and that feels great every day.
To be honest, I think that the people who come on here talking about the money, aren't really true entrepreneurs anyway. I know I'm one, and I know for sure that money is way down on my priority list. We just want to build something awesome and HackFWD is giving us a wonderful opportunity to do that.
In my opinion, anyone with a great startup idea and a passion to match should definitely start hunting down HackFWD referrers and I say that with absolute sincerity.
At least in France, where I help organize the Founder Institute, we have plenty of angels, who will invest as little as 25K€.
The difference with the US is that culturally, money and success is not as accepted as in Silicon Valley, so angels tend to hide. They don't put themselves up front and center as much as in Silicon Valley, but they are around to be found.
The ones I know will invest very early, before you have a finished prototype.
Since I was talking about France specifically, they tend to invest in France only (the fancy ones invest in France and US). But I'm sure other European countries have similar angels.
First time founders that are considering funding should be more concerned about the people involved, the terms, and the impact on operations than the specific amount of equity.
Edit: for clarification, care about equity, sure, but whether you're giving away 10%, 20%, 30% of your company is much less important in the beginning than the other things I mention.
This is true, but only to a point, and only when compared with a founder's other alternatives.
Seed-stage fundraising has never favored the entrepreneur more. In this climate, founders can get a higher valuation for their company from a high-quality set of angels, so 'ouch' seems pretty appropriate to me.
I am another (UK based referrer) and I was attracted to the model which seems innovative. It will not suit everyone but for those who have an idea and want both funding and support it seems like an interesting approach.
All of the referrers are on the look out for projects but also welcome contact from those with the right sorts of ideas at the right stages of development.
Does anyone know if HackFwd is planning on working with Israeli startups? From the looks of their site, it seems they don't currently have any Israeli operations.
Based on my actual salary? Why not just a fixed amount for everyone?
Seems unfair to those who have already reduced their income to a minimum to get started.
I think it's pretty different. - It doesn't have a public application process. You can only be referred by someone in the network. - It doesn't require you to move anywhere. You can work from your home country/city. - It doesn't have a formal 3 month program with mentorship and dinners. It's a 1+ year stunt, with a quarterly weekend retreat where you get to present your achievements and get tons of feedback and mentorship. - It doesn't give you $15-20k for 6%, but instead matches your annual salary with caps at 90k, 140k and 190 if you are a 1, 2 or 3 person team respectively. HackFwd always gets 27% equity, and you are required to give away 3% to advisors/referrers.
It's a new approach to investing, and very very new having launched just 6 months ago.