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Can Dirt Save the Earth? (nytimes.com)
83 points by indigodaddy on Dec 9, 2018 | hide | past | favorite | 51 comments



Australian farmers, suffering through yet another "unexpectedly intensive" drought, could learn a lot from this. I mean they won't, but they could.

Instead they will whinge and complain and put their hands out and watch their stock die and, when rain falls again, they will take the government-aid cheques and overstock their land and continue the laziest, dumbest form of farming they could import from the cooler, wetter climes of England.


There are a few Australian farmers onto what seems to me a similar approach including farmer turn author Charles Massy who published "Call of the Reed Warbler".

In the early chapters of the book Charles explains his story of going to university for a science degree though coming back to the farm soon after when his father passes. He listened to the experts selling the products on what to do for years before deciding it was no longer working and decided on another approach.

I don't think we can blame the farmers directly though instead big agriculture and how they manipulate the farmers and lobby the government to sell more product.


That's exactly the mindset of Farmers here in Burgundy, France. We just had one of the dryest summers on record - we're still running a water deficit. Farmer's response: demand government subsidies!


[flagged]


I am not impressed by your disdain of the French people.

Looking at your comments, you seem so polarized about things (traders, for example), without even knowing how they work; it's sad...


Parent's comment is off-topic but let me get the facts straight: a worker in France having a 35h work week will typically get 5 weeks of paid time holiday, not 7-10 weeks.


If it works, even a little bit, I'm all for it. There are similar stories about e.g. China restoring vast arid lands back into green lands through simple measures that basically include a little bit of engineering but mostly letting nature do what it does best. Similarly, Northern Africa is basically turning land into deserts by letting goats and sheep roam free and to eat everything that looks even remotely green. Some simple fences keeping the animals out can apparently restore a lot of that land in years thus making it possible to farm all sorts of stuff that previously would not grow there at all.

This suggests that figuring out how to manipulate nature to function more optimally, can actually be beneficial. Even merely stopping to do things that are clearly misguided seems to help. Healthy soil does all sorts of things that are beneficial. Holding carbon is part of that yes. But it also holds water. Without water nothing grows. If you fix that, bio diversity increases, the soil becomes richer, more stuff grows. Including the stuff we're interested in farming.

Much of last century was dedicated to intensive farming and short term yields without any regard whatsoever to the long term impact. None of that has to be permanent. If you read science fiction, a popular topic is terra forming. We'll have an opportunity to terra form earth long before we need to terra form somewhere else. Might be easier too and feasible.


Nicely written article, but the author needs to have a conversation with a chemist on the difference between carbon, carbon dioxide, and hydrocarbons. The author calls all of them "carbon", making for confusing reading.

Anyway if you need a summary: Spray cow manure on fields to encourage plant grown. Done right you can actually increase topsoil, burying older plants under newer ones and store hydrocarbons there.

Basically reverse soil erosion, with benefits in carbon dioxide capture.


Spray cow manure on fields to encourage plant grown

I don't believe that's quite right. The article suggests that manure and fertiliser themselves release greenhouse gases into the atmosphere, potentially negating any increase in sequestration due to plant growth:

Wick wanted to know if he could deliberately replicate this process on his ranch — but without manure, which, as it decomposes, can release potent greenhouse gases like methane and nitrous oxide. The former traps about 30 times as much heat as carbon dioxide, the latter 300 times as much. As a carbon-farming tool, manure might be self-defeating.

Instead they propose that compost be used, while avoiding methods of farming that release carbon from the soil.

Jeff Creque, a onetime organic farmer, had a suggestion: Why not use compost? Compost can contain manure, but whereas manure alone can release nitrogen as nitrous oxide, the nitrogen in compost becomes locked up in complex molecules. At least in theory, that limits the escape of a powerful greenhouse gas.

Silver had thought that the compost would simply break down, releasing its carbon back into the atmosphere or, worse, produce nitrous oxide. But those emissions never occurred; moreover, judging by its chemical signature, most of the carbon moving into the soil came from the air, not the compost. The compost appeared to help the plants draw more carbon from the atmosphere than they otherwise would have.


"Spray cow manure on fields to encourage plant grown. Done right you can actually increase topsoil, burying older plants under newer ones and store hydrocarbons there."

Fair enough, but can that process be achieved with net-negative carbon emissions ?

I live in rural Marin County which is featured in this article and is (currently) ground zero for this kind of research. There are several ranches near mine that have adopted these practices specifically to combat climate change.[1]

After you raise the cattle (with all of the carbon emissions that entails) and then transport their manure in a large ICE truck (but not large enough to get economies of fuel efficiency like a semi on a highway would have) and then use a big tractor and/or bulldozer to unload and move it ...

You've got four or six or eight guys there at the ranch doing the labor and of course they don't live there - and the reality of Marin County land values and rents dictates that they probably live an hour or more away in Santa Rosa or Vacaville or worse. And of course they drive as large of pickup trucks as their paycheck will possibly support to transport their single body to that worksite.

And then you have to maintain the process by tilling or turning the material - again with tractors or bulldozers and again with more workers who drive to the site.

It sounds like I'm getting unfair and nit-picking here but that's the whole point: the exercise makes no sense unless it is carbon net-negative so you have to add all of these costs to the ledger.

I would be overjoyed if it penciled out, but very skeptical that it does.

[1] https://www.marincarbonproject.org/


Its being reviewed by The American Carbon Registry who seem to be experienced and meticulous. Details of the methodology here:

https://americancarbonregistry.org/carbon-accounting/standar...


The article seems to be saying, don't spray manure but compost made with manure. I'm not sure what that is. Is it manure mixed with plant compost?


I always love a chance to use my old farmer background on Hacker News.

So, manure is decaying animal excrement. Compost is decaying animal excrement plus some additional biological matter handled in such a way that certain species of bacteria take over. Basically, you turn it frequently.

What kind of bacteria take over? Aerobic ones. Now, granted, aerobic bacteria do produce greenhouse gases, but they're in the form of CO2, which really isn't so bad. By contrast, anaerobic bacteria release more potent greenhouse gases such as methane and nitrogen dioxide.

A big steaming pile of manure, left on its own, will easily be overtaken by anaerobic bacteria. With proper treatment, however, aerobic bacteria will dominate.


Manure is basically a monoculture of whatever the cow ate - i.e. decomposing grass.

Worms and bugs need a balanced diet. So a farmer will, presumably, add crop and other agricultural waste to cultivate these helpful aerobics.

(I'm only a backyard horticulturalist. Gardening experts stress adding a balance of leaves, grass clippings and miscellaneous 'organic material' to one's vegie scraps for a healthy urban compost.)


It's the language of carbon capture which the IPCC uses. Of course they are aware of the differences between those molecules, but the common element of concern is - carbon.


Ok, let’s cultivate the Sahara!


It is not a bad idea but it will probably need an enormous political (mostly I think), economical and technological effort.


There's a slight problem with water, I believe.


Only because we removed all the vegetation.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/03/170314111320.h...


> This view ran counter to a lot of conservationist thought, as well as a great deal of evidence. Grazing has been blamed for turning vast swaths of the world into deserts. But from Creque’s perspective, how you graze makes all the difference.

This is the idea behind this fantastic TED talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpTHi7O66pI

We're largely focused on high-tech ways to "fix" the Earth, but the Earth has known how to do it since forever. Finding ways to use her own intelligence seems like a great idea.


I remember being blown away by that video but apparently there has been some criticism of Savory's work. Searching his name returns a few critical articles such as this one:

https://www.sierraclub.org/sierra/2017-2-march-april/feature...

He has responded to some of them and sticks to his claims. It seems the picture is very complicated and we haven't figured it out just yet.


The Earth doesn't "want" to do anything. It's a collection of physical, geological, chemical, biological, etc. processes that can exist in a variety of semi-stable equilibria - some small number of which are amenable to human life. There is no evidence of any intentionality of any sort, no teleology, no preferred "healthy" state.


There is also Freeman Dyson's talk called "heretics thoughts" according to which global warming is mainly a land management issue.

https://youtu.be/8xFLjUt2leM


A decent article, not pefect but well done. Too often is wildlife, forestry and agricultural sciences tainted with the general populous's biases and misinformation about what is eco-friendly or green despite most people have almost zero experience in any relevant fields. People get taught some simplistic model or ideal as children and never get taught anything beyond that, so they mistakenly believe that they learned all the important and relevant parts to complete the picture. But in reality 9/10 people have never grown more than a few lawn weeds or an extremely hardy house plant that you have to actively attempt to kill. Add in some mass media fluff pieces and bullshit targeted political ads and you got a whole pool of nonsense shielded under the guise of 'common knowledge.'


For a book length version of how soil can help the environment in many ways, I suggest "The Soil Will Save Us". http://www.kristinohlson.com/books/soil-will-save-us


Thanks for the recommendation, just ordered a copy for my wife as a Christmas present. She's a horticulturalist so I think she will love it.

Hacker News accidental Christmas gift shopping tips?


Aside, but Terra Preta is also well worth looking at, being something that can be easily made by human intervention, improves soil, and permanently sequesters carbon in a form that doesn't break down on any short timescale.


Doesn't the account in the article run counter to the narrative that cows are massive greenhouse gas producers? Is there an alternative to grazing that would not require cows?


There's the question of what the cows are fed. AFAIK, grazing isn't how most cows feed these days, and the high methane output may have to do with the feed they're given instead of grass. There was a post here some time ago about feeding cows algae, and that also reducing methane output significantly.

That said, even if grazing does result in a net capture if carbon, that doesn't mean that the problems associated with eating beef like we do go away. There's not enough pasture to produce the amounts of meat factory farming puts out.


Feeding seaweed to cows reduces methane emissions by as much as 99%.

https://www.independent.co.uk/environment/cows-seaweed-metha...


Ive nabbed the cover photograph of a big steaming pile of dirt to fertilize my desktop environment with - its splendid :D


It reminds me a little too much of my family’s cattle ranch. No thanks!


I can appreciate, but will see how long it keeps its charm.

...I hardly ever see my desktop anyway.


Brown is a great colour.


I wouldn't like to do without it. Its not so often I come across a professionally composed picture of a big steaming pile of plant food.


I love reading about clever ideas like this, but at the same time, I'm leery of the notion that we can fix the climate at the last minute, a narrative that stems from the late capitalist imperative to innovate. We don't need to innovate to find a solution; we need to act.


There is no other way. Any attempt to get people to 'change' their lifestyle now is ineffective, and any attempt to force them to will just be met with a coup/failed government.

At the end of the day, technology is the only thing that will fix climate issues. Anything else is simply not possible.


And if we don't develop the technology in time?


We're in trouble, then.

I have to agree that technology has to play a big part in mitigating and surviving climate change. I don't believe we have the social means to change our consumption patterns enough.

Right now, to meet the approx. 1.5 tons of CO2 per capita long-term target implied by the (inadequate) Paris accords, you basically have to be homeless in the west. Just your share of infrastructure puts you over the limit.

I don't believe for a moment we can, as a society, voluntarily reduce our quality of life to the point that our emissions would be sufficiently reduced. Any political system that tries that will collapse, because that's what happens when economic growth stops. And if your society is in upheaval, you're not going to be solving climate change, except possibly through self-destruction.

So yes, we definitely need to act, but that action needs to include some very impressive technological change, because without it, we're all but guaranteed to fail.


All of the (as you say, inadequate) climate accord plans already assume that we are going to develop magical carbon-sequestration technology and deploy it on a global scale by 2050 or so.[0]

So basically, it's even worse than you might think. Not only do we have to cut our emissions dramatically, but we also have to invent some technology for negative emissions.

[0] https://www.vox.com/2016/10/4/13118594/2-degrees-no-more-fos...


We die. Obviously.


Of course we need to innovate. Billions of people aren't going to voluntarily go back to living in terrible poverty.


You don't need to live in terrible poverty to reduce your carbon footprint.


I'm not talking about me. I'm talking about the 2 billion people in China and India.


We’re not going to act. I’ve come around to accepting that. We need to plan on what we do if we don’t reduce carbon emissions because it’s too late for that already.

Even if everyone is driving electric cars that’s just going to lower the price of gas and people will put it to other uses.


> Even if everyone is driving electric cars that’s just going to lower the price of gas and people will put it to other uses.

a) There is a floor to oil prices. No one will produce it for less than the cost of production, no matter how low demand falls.

b) It's possible to raise the price arbitrarily using a carbon tax, which becomes much more politically expedient once prices are already lower and fewer voters are relying on oil for their commute.


> we need to act

What actions are you suggesting?

And keep in mind that any action that reduces standard of living will cause deaths, and ultimately more emissions because people won't have spare more for environmental causes.

So bearing that in mind, what actions are you suggesting?


Tax carbon, use the money to fund a UBI. The UBI increases standard of living as much or more than a carbon tax in the same amount reduces it. The carbon tax itself also promotes living closer to work over having a longer commute, which also improves standard of living by reducing the amount of time unproductively spent commuting. (We could also reduce carbon/commuting further by constructing more high density urban housing.) Reducing oil consumption reduces resources sent to antagonistic OPEC member states, leaving those resources here to improve standard of living as well.

This is before we get to the benefits of having less climate change.


What are you suggesting? Doing nothing is catastrophic: https://www.rifters.com/crawl/?p=8433

I dispute that "any action that reduces standard of living will cause deaths" -- there are all sorts of ways my life could be made worse that won't kill me.


any action that reduces standard of living will cause deaths

Not really, the US has much higher GDP per capita than Europe but lower life expectancy.


It's already the last minute. It's time for ideas like these.


Sadly not about Keanus latest adventures




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