And now the top thread is dominated by an argument about laptop keyboards, for a device that isn't a laptop and doesn't even come with a keyboard.

But to be fair, the device is made by Apple and the discussion speaks to how Apple treats its consumers.

I'm pretty happy with mine, but thanks for speaking for us all with your sweeping generalization.

I work at a company where most of us use Macs. Everyone that has upgraded from a 2013-2015 MBP to the touchbar model absolutely hates it, including me. There's gotta be someone around here that actually likes it, but I haven't met them yet.

Its OK if you like it. I'm sure lots of people do, but you know damn well significantly more people have had issues with this laptop than normal, so I'm not sure why you're implying otherwise.

The keyboard is by far the worst I've ever used, and I've owned a variety of $200 Wal-Mart black friday laptops and a couple of netbooks, in addition to some high end stuff. I had a friend with an older MBP attempt to show me something using my computer and he could barely type on it without frequent mistakes. Within a minute he was getting frustrated. It just feels terrible. I never thought anything would be worse than typing on a touch-screen but Apple's engineers have accomplished a horrifying miracle. Its like they intentionally tried to design something that's as loud as a mechanical keyboard while still having worse tactile feedback than a $5.00 rubber dome keyboard.

On top of that, its not noticeably faster, after 4.5 years it still maxed out @ 16GB Ram (They fixed this in 2018 but its too late), which is not enough for my use case + it died after 3 months (Not the keyboard, it was a power issue).

This is both the most expensive and the worst computer I've ever owned. The 2013 MBP I'm using now as a loaner while I get my new one fixed is, to quote Steve Jobs "Like getting a glass of ice water in hell." It just works.

The touchbar made me realize that I have a habit of resting my fingers up there. I came to this realization because when I didn't think I was typing anything, stuff would happen. Eventually I realized I was touching virtual buttons on the touchbar.

I don't hate it, but I wish more of the tools I use took advantage of it.

I think it could be massively improved by shortening it a little on the left to make room for a physical escape key. That's about 95% of my problem with it.

Consider mapping CapsLock to Esc (and Ctrl when long-pressed) with Karabiner. I haven't used my physical Esc key since 2014 or something. Might help with your issue.

You don't need a third party tool; System Preferences does this for you already. (Maybe not the long-press, but I'm vim, not emacs).

If you remap CapsLock to Esc, what key do you use for Control for doing Control A, Control E, Control K, Control Y, Control N, and Control P in every application?

I tried to address this in my parentheses, but Karabiner specifically lets you bind CapsLock to both: Esc when tapped alone, and Ctrl when held down in combination with other keys.

And your post also answers you sibling comment: Ctrl modifier is useful outside of just Emacs.

Try it out. I believe the API changed in the macOS release before Mojave, so they relaunched Karabiner under the name Karabiner Elements. This option is under the "Complex Modifications" tab.

If I was writing a list of tricks for macOS power users to try, this would be my number one. Up there with binding a global show/hide hotkey for iTerm (I use Ctrl-Space, thus CapsLock-Space).

I prefer Magic Trackpad 2 (or native MBP 2015 trackpad) to any other way of navigation but Vi keybinds -if available- work as well.

I currently use Karabiner for this as well, but a slightly different configuration.

The two rules I use are:

* R-Cmd + hjkl are arrows (which works great with HHKB but even on native MBP it requires less movement of hand from trackpad or typing hand than the arrow keys)

* Caps solo is Esc while Caps with another key equals Ctrl.

Is there a way to do this in Linux as well? I currently have to use Linux regularly and I rebind Caps to Ctrl however for Vim it isn't ideal. So I'd like to have the same functionality I have with Karabiner on Linux (Xorg / console).

You can use xcape on linux to do this. I use it to map CAPS to CTRL/ESCAPE, and right shift to RIGHT SHIFT/COMPOSE

I use Karabiner Elements to bind backtick (grave accent) to Esc, Command-backtick to Command-backtick as normal (so you can switch between windows of the same app), and Option-backtick to backtick.

It's not optimal, but I do it because backtick is about the same position as a hardware Escape key. It makes using vim feel ok again.

This option is available from the KE Complex Modifications tab.

Note that this means you lose the ability to use option-backtick for diacritic marks. Normally option-backtick followed by a makes "à", Option-backtick followed by e makes "è", etc

This isn't working for me in Mojave; you haven't had a problem?

In this mode... if you hold down CapsLock as Ctrl and then don't decide to press another modifier... does it still fire CapsLock as Esc?

Are you denoting control+shift+a as control-A?

No, I was just typing on a phone. I meant control+a (start of line), control+e (end of line), etc.

Capslock is ctrl for most developers I know (because it's by far the most used key in terminal/Vim/emacs/etc).

Yes. Although in a Kinesis Advantage keyboard (the "official" Emacs keyboard), because the Control is under the thumb, it is useful to remap the CapsLock to Esc.

You should snag an app called BetterTouchTool. Makes the TouchBar an amazing addition to the laptop. It's just a shame that Apple didn't build in a tool like it but I hope the developer gets lots of love.

I have BTT for my machine at home, but the IT security department won't approve it for the work machines.

Doesn’t BTT require enabling unsigned kernel extensions?

Yes! I am constantly holding down the escape key without realizing it. Not a problem very often but occasionally causes some really confusing things to happen.

Doesn't it also get very distracting with how often it flashes into different states? I've heard this drives people crazy.

When you remap it it doesn't flash at all.

The touchbar? I find it more amusing than distracting.

> Its OK if you like it. I'm sure lots of people do, but you know damn well significantly more people have had issues with this laptop than normal, so I'm not sure why you're implying otherwise.

Yup, that's exactly what the HN groupthink would like to believe. What is by definition a small user demographic complains repeatedly/loudly that their problems are the most important, indicative of "everyone", and Apple is doomed because so-and-so bought a Surface Pro/Dell/System76. The hyperbolie is kicked up a notch here, as clearly any $200 Walmart laptop keyboard is better.

As is typical, there's never any data to support the claims and a significant number of counter anecdotes are dismissed absent critical reasoning ("you know damn well...!"). Instead, the echo chamber resonates unabated by logic.

Throw in an out of context Steve quote and you can identify this drivel pretty uniformly. It's usually best to ignore, though at times a response is merited when it's completely off topic and unhelpful (as it is here, the new Mac mini seems awesome regardless of a hater's two year old take on the tbMBP).

I like the feel of the keyboard. I did not like the trip to the Mac store at 8 months whereby they very gingerly lifted the spacebar and removed whatever crumb was under there making it mushy.

I also like the touchbar. The touch-slide volume is a nifty improvement...I use the touchbar for the occasional screengrab...and that's about it. As someone mentioned above, I too would really like a physical Escape key

If you go back and read my comment, I didn't say that out of Apple's entire customer base, more people dislike the keyboard than like it. I said that more people are having issues with this computer than a normal Apple MBP.

Just like your comment, this is an anecdotal opinion on the Internet. I didn't read your response and come away with the conclusion that you were attempting to represent it as a peer reviewed white paper, so I'm not sure why you're holding my random Internet comment to the same standard.

My anecdotal evidence is that all of the typical places people go to talk about technology on the Internet(reddit, hacker news, blogs, etc.) seem to have to more complaints about the keyboard on the new MBP than I recall seeing about the old model, which was almost universally hailed as the best laptop on the market.

Included with that anecdotal evidence is my own experience in a company with hundreds of people that use MBPs. There might be other companies where everyone loves them.

It would be really helpful if we could trust Apple to publish accurate, relevant data on the new MBP vs the old one, but they have a history of hiding, denying and/or lying about issues with Apple products.

>The hyperbolie is kicked up a notch here, as clearly any $200 Walmart laptop keyboard is better.

This isn't hyperbole. Its just my opinion and it was presented as such. I've been using computers since the early 90s. I've never used a keyboard that felt worse to me than the MBP. When I say that I don't mean that its one of the worst keyboards I've ever used, I mean that its THE worst keyboard that I have ever used, which is obviously just my opinion.

>Throw in an out of context Steve quote and you can identify this drivel pretty uniformly

This isn't a case where reusing a quote is changing the context of what he meant. I wasn't saying that Steve Jobs agrees with my opinion of the new MBP. This should be pretty obvious. The original context was that Steve Jobs felt one product was so superior to another one that getting the former was like getting a glass of ice water in hell. Its a perfectly relevant quote used in the same way that he did. I just happen to be comparing different products.

>It's usually best to ignore, though at times a response is merited when it's completely off topic and unhelpful (as it is here, the new Mac mini seems awesome regardless of a hater's two year old take on the tbMBP).

1. Its perfectly on-topic to discuss the quality of Apple products in a post about an Apple product. The reputation of their products is pretty valid when people are discussing whether to buy a newer product.

2. I didn't bring up the MBP, someone else did and I responded.

3. Not liking a single Apple product doesn't make me a "hater". I loved my 2013 MBP, I loved all of my iPhones/iPads, and I love MacOS. Apple released a product that I have an issue with. Lots of other people are having the same issue. I'm not sure why you have to react to that like a personal attack.

There's this phenomenon where if lots of people have an issue with something and then a random person buys the product and has a good experience, that person decides to dismiss everyone that has had an issue, pretend its impossible the issue existed, and then act like there must be something wrong with the people that had the issue. I don't really understand that because with any product that sells thousands or millions, its typical for some people to have issues even if most like it. In this case, it just happens to be a product where a slightly larger percentage than normal is having an issue.

I don't understand all the hate for the touchbar. I can never remember the functions performed by the function keys, so having icons indicating which functions are available seems really useful.

The problem is that most serious computer users use a laptop docked, so it’s useless 70-90% of the time, which means the software can’t rely on it, which means it’s an afterthought in all apps.

A Scotsman would be to say “No true computer user ...” - this was a generalisation. An apt one IMHO

No it wasn't. Define "serious". What makes one computer user more "serious" than another. The point of the no true Scottsman is that the term is never defined by the statement and so it's completely subjective.

That’s not how it works.

Actually it is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

Refuting the initial generalization by saying that no "serious" computer users use their Touch Bar because their computers are closed is nearly a textbook example of the fallacy.

that's not what he (or she) was doing.

Do you have to look down to use those icons on the Touchbar? This is something I don’t have to do as a touch-typist. Repeatedly craning your neck to look down will result in RSI. I spend a little effort to learn new hotkeys every so often and the benefit far outweighs the cost: I’m much faster and keep my good ergonomics.

I don't use the function keys much, so yes, i do look at the keyboard when using them.

Comparing the keyboard with a $200 walmart netbook is a joke. It might not be everybody's taste, but it's far from terrible. I actually like it and at my company where 95% of engineers have one, there is not more complains than usual about the new model. People that really can't stand the keyboard will usually use external peripherals at their desk.

I share in the hate. It’s the worst keyboard I’ve used in memory. The trackpad is first rate however.

The touchbar is so much less functional than the keys it replaces. Some key combinations now require serious acrobatics, and you can’t touch type as easily.

We’re not buying any more macs until it improves.

>the touchbar model absolutely hates it

What kind of work do you / your teammates do? I walked into an Apple store last week prepared to hate the keyboards and touch bars, but was very pleasantly surprised. My ladyfriend wanted to see the Air, but was so taken with the Touch Bar for photo work that she will be buying an MBP instead. While it might not be everyones cup of tea, I think Apple may have figured is demographics correctly on this one.

I don't have a problem with the touchbar, its the keyboard that they introduced on the same model.

I also think the new MacBook Pro is the worst laptop I've ever had. I hated it so much I switched to a Thinkpad. Thankfully these are company issued laptops and I could do this pretty easily. Had I bought a personal one I'd be quite distraught.

Anyone who hates the touchbar has never chased a chat window for the mute button (it's there). Also, no need to leave the keyboard to click on dialog box buttons - they also get there.

It could be better - it could require a bit more of pressure to press buttons and could have haptic feedback like the touchpad, but I bet someone is working on that, even if it means extending haptic feedback to the whole chassis (which is not a bad idea anyway).

I have a 2013 15" MBP, a 2015 13" MBP, a 2016 15" MBP w/ Touchbar, and a 2017 15" MBP w/ Touchbar. I vastly prefer the 2013 and 2015, even though they are bare-bones specced and the newer MBPs are top-of-the-line. The touchbar MBPs are provided to me by my employer. I just bought my 2015 13" this year, after considering getting a newer model, and I'm planning for it to be my main personal laptop for years to come.

I don't like the touchbar, I don't like the new keyboard, and I don't like the new ports.

I think there is something wrong if, now two years later, there are still people like me who not only don't see a clear benefit to upgrading, but see it as a net-negative.

Ideally, there should be nearly no one (if anyone) who prefers the previous iteration.

It makes things universally worse imo. Everything was by touch for me previously, including adjusting sound. I had the keyboard memorized. Now I constantly have to look down. A keyboard shouldn't require me to change my focus, that defeats the entire purpose.

Same. I bought a 2018 MacBook Pro with the Touch Bar this July. Before that, I owned a 2014 MacBook Pro, the last one with the mechanical trackpad. My new machine is absolutely better than my old one.

In what ways is your new machine better, apart from being thinner and just a bit lighter?

The dimensions aren't really a selling point for me at all. Both laptops are thin enough and light enough for me to carry them to and from work comfortably.

Performance is better across the board (6-core i9 vs 4-core i7, 32GB vs 16GB, faster SSD). It has a larger, pressure-sensitive track pad. The display is better.

I have a slight preference for the old keyboard, but I don't dislike the new one. I could take or leave the TouchBar. I was never a big user of the F keys and IntelliJ, where I spend a lot of my time, has good TouchBar support. I like having Touch ID. I'd prefer to have a real escape key, but the button is still in the same place so I haven't had to retrain my fingers to hit it.

USB-C with a Thunderbolt 3 hub is marginally more convenient than a Thunderbolt 2 hub plus a MagSafe power cord. I do miss MagSafe though.

These are almost exactly my thoughts as well coming from a 2015 MBP. I would only add that for me, I actually like the new keyboard. The low/firm travel of the keys is actually preferable for me. I felt like the old keyboards were "mushy". That's obviously a personal preference, however.

I'm terribly unhappy with mine and so is everyone else I know, so i'm pretty pleased with it

I like the Touchbar more than most of my other colleagues like the Touchbar. And I hate the Touchbar.

The new macbook pro keyboard is flimsy and easily broken. I bought my own macbook pro, delete key stuck.

Got a new one from my new job, keyboard stuck.

My brother bought a new one, keyboard stuck.

You are liking it wrong :)

McDonald's also makes record sales in Japan right now. So by your logic that must be the best hamburger in the market.

Would you suppose that price and convenience might be factors aside from food quality?

This is the thing - narrow single issue analysis that doesn't even acknowledge that other factors of consideration even exist, inevitably will result in conclusions with very limited applicability.

I don't mind the touchbar. It has it's moments. I just wish they had included it in addition to the normal keyboard, rather than replacing the top row.

I think really the goal was replacing the top row in the first place - the function keys are generally useless except for ancient legacy compatibility, advanced user's macros, and media control.

But the sides of the function keys are the escape and power keys, so the row itself couldn't go away

I wish the Touch Bar was farther offset, 50-100% taller for a better display area, and that the escape and touch id/power buttons were distinct. I also wish there was a standard way for applications to advertise functions for it (I have some really useful tools that are third party, such as mic mute).

I don't dislike the touchbar, I'm just annoyed at having to pay so much for something I'm ambivalent about.

I don't understand why it isn't just an option. If you want it give you can pay for it.

Hate it or not, Apple has to make it relatively commonplace if they want macOS apps to bother developing for it instead of ignoring it. Their short-term goal is 100% of MBP users, and surely, eventually 100% of all macOS laptop users.

Keeping it optional indefinitely, then, defeats this goal.

Then is it going to come to desktop machines too, where people often use battery-powered Bluetooth keyboards, or peripherals not made by Apple? What about the tiny 12 inch Macbook?

I don't see how this thing is practical across the entire Mac line.

The 12-inch Macbook has an F-key row which is what gets replaced with the touch bar.

I only estimated that they were going for 100% laptop coverage. But I can imagine a future where Apple keyboards have a touch bar option. Though not as important because Macbook touch bar penetration can drive developers to integrate with it, alone.

At which point it's not much different than gestures when it comes to answering your questions. What happens when you use a Logitech mouse on your macOS desktop instead of a Magic Trackpad?

Note that touch bar integration cannot have unique features, so it's never required. The challenge is to get developers to care about it which is the prerequisite for users to care about it.

From Apple's perspective, extending this to desktops kills two birds with one stone.

    1. Widespread touchbar adoption
    2. Increased sales of Apple keyboards

I don't see how you can add the Touchbar to desktops without creating a wired keyboard or adding an expensive big battery to it and jacking the price to $200.

Actually, I do: They'll raise the price of the cheapest iMac configuration and include the keyboard in the box. After seeing the starting Mac Mini prices, it makes total sense.

Probably because it can't be made to be "just an option".

Having seen teardowns of a MacBook, I'm pretty sure that one without a touchbar would be more-or-less a completely different computer - different keyboard, yes. To accomplish that, though, you'd need to also make a different housing to accommodate it, and a different motherboard, too, because this stuff's all soldered together as a single unit these days.

And for all that, people would still be griping about the keyboard and the monoport.

They sell a version without a touchbar.

https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook-pro

A low end 2-port version, yes.

They ignored those for the 2018 MBP refresh, probably because the new Macbook Air was coming. I'd bet on the full keyboard MBP getting discontinued now that it's out, or best case having the 2017 hang around while the touchbar models continue to see updates.

I doubt the "MacBook Escape" (13" non-touchbar) will be revved, because it will either be met by the air or an eventual revved MacBook focusing on ultraportable demographics.

The Escape has higher powered CPUs than the Air or MacBook, but I don't think anyone is buying from those three based on horsepower.

Right. But, echoing what I said, it's not "just an option" - it's a whole different model that they happen to be selling under the same name. Different CPU options, different monitors, different port configuration, etc. They don't even have the same number of microphones.

I don't have a problem with the Touch Bar. It's kind of handy for occasional things that are context specific and normally involve using the mouse.

It's taking me some time to get used to, I'll grant you that.

I'll be getting a 2018 Mac Mini once they're available for order here, so this machine will see much less use then, just basically if I need to be able to do something while travelling (which isn't that frequent).

Chiming in to agree that it wasn't a problem here. Though I also never understood why someone would be crazy enough to leave ESC as the default keybinding anyhow.

You'd think that Courage Incorporated would have had the gumption to officially move Escape to where Caps Lock is.

Some people use both ESC and Caps Lock all the time.

How else would you bind ESC?

Well, tbh, if it's simply a choice of which key to map to the currently-Caps Lock key then Escape should be the winner even if exiling Caps Lock to the Touch Bar would cause significant annoyance to some heavy users.

However, while users are mostly just faced with perhaps-hard choices about how to remap the given keys, the keyboard manufacturer and integrator Apple had many other options. Caps Lock is currently 2U wide on both ISO and ANSI layouts https://i.ytimg.com/vi/3tJagPz-xIw/maxresdefault.jpg , so it could fairly comfortably be split into a 1U Esc and Caps Lock. You could even give Escape the outside position: that's not a big reach, just the mirror-image of the ISO English # key and more convenient than Esc's existing position in both ANSI and ISO, and there's an arguable case for not putting Esc on too much of a hair-trigger position near the home row anyway. Alternatively you could carve a 1U key out from the right of the right Shift, which is pretty uselessly overlong on both ISO and ANSI.

Caps-Lock is a waste of a key. NeXT had it right by using Command-Shift (without any other keys) to turn on/off Caps-Lock.

I learned high speed touch typing in the eighties, with included heavy use of the caps-lock.

There is nothing wasteful about it when you've been trained that way.