It was disheartening to be outwardly liked and praised but to never receive a real promotion.
I've noticed this as a common unfortunate side effect of disclosing anything that has a stigma attached and explains why the upper echelons of most pursuits (politics, business, sport) still tend to be quite homogenous. While a small but ever increasing spotlight is being shone on issues faced by various minorities in the workplace (particularly by race and gender), disabilities and disorders tend to be less obvious and people are less keen to talk about them.
I'm autistic myself and have shielded myself from a lot of these issues by running my own company and delegating things I'm weak at but I've been very lucky to reach that point and my employees are very patient with me.
More work needs to happen to make standard workplaces take advantage of the many skills autistic people can bring to companies but without putting a glass ceiling on where they can go. The tech industry, in particular, is ahead of the game on this, I believe, due to some common autistic traits actually being an advantage. Companies like Microsoft have also actively developed programs to engage with and hire autistic people: https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/accessibility/2018/04/02/au...
I am personally really lucky as I am pretty high functioning on the spectrum, I am studying to go into the tech industry and my parents are both very supportive and our family is upper middle class.
That's just to say results may vary but I know there are multiple organizations that have come to do stuff at my university to set up job opportunities for those on the spectrum. They also function to inform students on the spectrum of the labour laws in Ontario and what that means in terms of helping people on the spectrum work as well as they can.
I don't think women are equally represented in the upper echelons of politics or business. For example, only 29% of FTSE 100 board members are women - https://www.gov.uk/government/news/record-number-of-women-on... - so that makes them a minority in that context, no?
It's a bit like how people of certain races may be considered "minorities" in our society, yet there could be billions of people of that race elsewhere in the world.
Throughout tech, women are a minority in the workplace, even if not a minority in the overall population, which is one potential meaning of "minorities in the workplace." At least that's what I gathered.
Women make up 51% of the US population so clearly men are a minority. Ha!
But really they probably mean a minority in a specific career or environment. For example, ~6% of truck drivers are female but only ~18% of primary and secondary teachers are male.
I'm male, and taught K-5 special education for 2.5 years in my first job out of college. Few men join the profession, and many of them leave for better paying jobs, but I think a huge part of it is society's willingness to make raising children women's work. This is the "oh Daddy is babysitting!" phenomenon happening at the professional level.
I have yet to see decent evidence of limiting factor being race / gender where I work (in Europe). Age is a bit different as experience is closely tied to it.
>"a group of people who, because of their physical or cultural characteristics, are singled out from the others in the society in which they live for differential and unequal treatment, and who therefore regard themselves as objects of collective discrimination"
Influence doesn't scale neatly with numbers. Also, people with nonbinary genders are helped by more equal binary representation since they're affected by the same problems that affect everyone regardless of identity in homogeneous environments. Even people in the statistical and social plurality are worse off with less variety.
I've never seen a place made worse by keeping space for more perspectives.
In most workplaces, yes. For many fields (IT, executive-level, politics...), women are in the minority. For others (teaching, nursing...), men are in the minority.
One big disparity is that most of the female-dominated fields tend to be lower-paying.
False, all genders (including male) are protected classes.
"We didn't hire you because we think women make better caregivers" is just as illegal as "We didn't hire you because we think men make better middle managers."
>The Children's Home, Inc., a Tampa nonprofit child care organization also known as the Children's Home Network, will pay $18,000 and provide training for its human resources and management employees to settle a sex discrimination lawsuit brought by the U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC), the agency announced today. The EEOC's lawsuit charged that The Children's Home violated federal law when it refused to consider a male employee, Luis Vasquez, for a position in its maternity home program based on his sex. The suit further alleged that, Vasquez, after voicing his concerns about the company's refusal to consider him because he is a male, was prevented from applying to any other positions with the organization.
>BALTIMORE - Park School of Baltimore Inc., a private school in Pikesville, Md., violated federal law when it refused to renew the employment contract of a male softball coach because it preferred female leadership, the U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC) charged in a lawsuit it announced today.
You are correct, and I intended to reflect just the point gender is a protected class whether or not it is the/a minority gender in the context of the employers work place, industry as a whole and society at large. I suppose my comment was poorly worded and open to interpretation based on use of “one gender”.
Of course there are exceptions to gender discrimination that does allow an employer to hire on the basis of sex (I.e. bonafide occupational qualification).
I'm having difficultly explaining my child has autism and need the time off all the time. Seriously people's expectations versus handling reality are very misaligned. Everyone constantly tells me I look sleepy and I've over heard from some that maybe I drink too much. They don't understand the time it takes to drive a kid to see 3 different specialists every other week, to drive to and from ABA therapy (which doesn't keep consistent hours or after care) they don't understand that she can't get into daycare (she's been kicked out by almost everywhere) and they definitely don't get why I'm like just a grain of sand away from losing it.
Hey, just want to say that I've watched my own parents handle this with my youngest brother (now 13). It's incredibly difficult and draining both physically and emotionally. I can't imagine how tough it is first hand as a parent.
It depends. Autism is a spectrum, not a single condition. I have two children with autism, and they are different. The younger one is much more self-sufficient than the older one. Has it gotten easier? With the younger one? Yes. With the older one? No.
The reasons are many. Both are still in diapers at 8 and 9 (soon to be 10), though the 8-year-old is getting potty trained. We are hopeful. The older one will probably never be out of diapers. The older one is also fairly big for his age. He always has been. He's also strong, does not know his own strength, and almost the height of my wife. She cannot lift him. Luckily, he's an affectionate child, so usually he just wants hugs or to sit on laps and be tickled. We have a stroller for him so we can take him places as he has low-tone muscles. Both are a flight risk (though the younger one is better now). The older one would wander into the road without a care.
But it's hard. Really hard.
And as they get older, there will be less and less support. At some point, we will not be able to properly care for him. However, society for the most part ignores this (despite the US doing a very good job compared to other nations).
I love my children. I love that they are happy. They smile, they laugh, and that's all I want for them for their lives. Your priorities as a parent quickly changes when you learn this. Instead of hoping they have a good job and are successful, you reevaluate your hopes and aspirations for them and you. You realize that success isn't money or a startup, it's happiness. If my older child is happy for the rest of his life, how can I feel anything less than joy. I know people far more "successful" and far more "wealthy" and "doing what they love" and yet, they won't ever be as happy as my sons are.
But it's hard. It's just hard because everything is harder than it should be. Everything takes longer, everything requires compromise, and not everything is available to you.
The thing to remember is that my story is mine alone. Autism is a spectrum, and some will have it much easier. I love my two boys, and I would do anything for them, and all I want is for them to be happy.
I still remember when my daughter got assessed and the psychiatrist basically said. I know you probably have hopes and dreams for your daughter. But you need to put those away and forget them. That she would never be able to talk etc. My daughter can now talk some, I think she understands more than she lets on. We're doing great with potty training fortunately what we have are severe behavioral problems and communication. (She refuses to wear clothes, hits and bites, and basically screams all the time)
It's just harder than most can possibly imagine. When I look at her I see both my hopes and dreams from when I first held her still. The worst is seeing parents and neurotypical children together. I'm both happy for them but I get so envious. As time goes on too I'm finding my extended family invites us to less and less.
As a high-functioning, doggedly independent diagnosed autist: thanks a ton for your efforts. My parents did the best they could, and I'm uncomfortably aware of how much effort it must have taken at times to deal with my particulars. They never quite knew what they were dealing with, but they gave me unconditional love and support, and ultimately that's what mattered most, even if they failed at understanding my particular needs/quirks. I'm sure I gave them a hard time much of the time.
Other than that I'd suggest looking into health care in other western nations. I'm being vague because I don't know your particulars, but so far I've been quite impressed by the support provided in Europe for people on the spectrum. It's not ideal, but it's affordable and the quality seems alright so far.
If there's nothing in particular keeping you in one place, and if you can find work elsewhere, it could be worth exploring expat life if you have one or more autistic children. And it could be great for yourself too.
Thank you. We already moved from Canada to the US precisely because of the support issue. While it could always be better, I should make it clear that Pennsylvania has been wonderful in its support so far.
However, you make a good point, and yes, we have no fear of moving as needed. Whatever it takes.
It's different, certainly. I'm talking second hand about someone so I don't want to attribute too much of what are my observations as truth - but he's definitely more aware of when he's struggling and can articulate that better compared with when he was younger. He's also at a secondary school with very small class sizes that's set up to help with cases like his, which helps.
He does have other health issues that make day to day life difficult in other ways, so I don't want to say everything's rosy. Still lots of hard work for my parents to manage.
It can be tough to find the niche to thrive in, but I've seen it work quite a few times. So at least it's possible. Sometimes it does require a degree of permanent care by parents/guardians, but some degree of autonomy and even 'thriving' is possible. Don't lose hope!
Often, the burden seems to shift from providing direct care to struggling with the financial and legal issues of institutional care. It's awful, but I've seen too many friends travel too similar paths to believe it's not common. :(
My child is on the spectrum. His symptoms are relatively mild by comparison it seems with yours. It's still tough for me and my wife. I hope you are able to hang on to that grain of sand. I know how hard it is.
For others to suggest you're drinking too much is both strange and absurd... it would be one of the last suggestions I were to brainstorm, but perhaps I'm naive in that regard.
Hey, that sounds really tough and the drinking sounds a bit worrisome. I'm not a stranger to either of these issues, so please don't hesitate to send me an email. Don't be a stranger :).
EDIT: both the perception of being a drinker and actually being a drinker, obviously at different times in my life.
I have a brother in-law (20yo) that's also on the spectrum (aspergers).
In an attempt to help with general anxiety that's associated with Aspergers, we introduced him to marijuana (as it has a relaxing effect), but that just mainly causes more anxiety.
However, it turns out that microdosing on psychedelics has been quite the panacea. I'd highly recommend reading the book "A Really Good Day" that goes over the safety aspects, myths and such.
In a span of 4 months, the kid is completely changed. Far more sociable. He's communicated that his anxiety is gone. He has become more thoughtful and far more self-sufficient. His ability to communicate/articulate his needs & desires, relay stories from his day are new behaviors that have presented himself since this regimen has started. In a sense, he has gone from "more autistic" to "more typical teenage/young adult boy" in a span of 4 months. He still does say that his condition is still apparent and that his ability to intuitively react to emotion/facial expressions/body language hasn't necessarily developed, but with the anxiety removed, now he can read body language cues with ease as he is not debilitated by the anxiety of the interaction and move forward in the interaction rather than recusing himself and living in his own bubble.
The reason this appears to work is because psychedelics increasing brain plasticity/neurogenesis. Even after the doses stop, the benefits will continue to remain as new neural connections have become established. A regimen can be used for say a month or two and be stopped with the benefits derived, so it's not something one necessarily needs to engage in for the rest of their life.
His immediate family doesn't know that this regimen is taking place, but everyone in the family during gatherings attributes his demeanor change to his "summer job" which "opened" him up, and are so "proud" of him and his growth. Of course, spending 12 years in a social school environment did nothing to open him up, but a 3 month summer job did the trick. chuckles
Of course there are stories of people who have taken very large tripping doses and have had catastrophic effects, so it isn't without risks, however, it appears that the risks are pretty minimal and also very manageable at microdose quantities.
So far in my microdose experiment, n=5 have had absolutely no ill effects and has been tremendous boon to mental state/cognition/clarity in general.
That's great with the psychedelics. It's a promising treatment from some stuff I've seen with PTSD patients.
RE: cannabis. Most cannabis you buy is high in THC, which causes anxiety. You want the high CBD, low THC stuff. CBD has anti-anxiety properties and is actually relaxing, especially at high doses. As a bonus, it does not get one high. I also recommend a vaporizer pen or edibles instead of smoking.
Could you elaborate on the specifics? I have a microdosable bit of LSD at the ready but haven't had the courage to try yet.
EDIT: I feel anxiety is the worst of it. I can accept being 'weird', and my OCD-ish tendencies give me comfort. I mostly struggle with the anxiety, and weed has not been a good solution.
Texas. Wait list is 19 years. We get some services but we're past the age limit on most of those. Not to mention most of them are so defunded it's like 30 mins of speech therapy available a month...
Your best bet is to move. Massachusetts, New York, New Jersey, California, Minnesota have good services. Texas defunded special ed in schools and the Feds cracked down on them so now they have to provide services but it will take years to get enough providers. I would move. But what you want is a center based program (so you can work). You can find these in Arizona and Florida as well I believe but there are issues there due to republican control of the state legislatures. FYI Minnesota HAD crazy wait lists and a Federal judge admonished them for not spending the money and things turned around in about 2-3 years. So we do have limited providers with about a 6 month wait list and only 1 provider in the metro area for kids older than age 7. So I would say Massachusetts or New Jersey or New York.
In my experience school districts are terrible at providing services. You want county level, private insurance or Medicaid. Also you want to be in a college town or near a college town because 90% of the line ABA therapists are college kids (supervised by a BCBA etc.. and up to a psyD etc... that helps staffing immensely. California has a 6 month wait at the regional center level for assessment, Minnesota has a SMRT wait of 60 days if I recall correctly but the bigger issue is ~6months to get into a center based program.
If moving is not an option another idea is to start a program. You are not alone and other parents will band together. For Texas it would fill a huge need.
EDIT:
Article discusses New Jersey and their well established system.
Fellow Texan. We have a 16 yr old girl on the spectrum. Not sure how old your daughter is. The public schools are required to provide service (even before starting school) once your daughter has been officially diagnosed and it's recorded in their records. Also it's hit and miss regarding schools. We've had bad elementary, middle, and high school. We transferred and found good schools. Some school care (and "get it") and some don't. Keep up the good fight!
Huh.. do you have to disclose minor child disabilities? I’ve heard obtaining citizenship becomes more difficult but temporary residency while a child should be ok.
I have found it best to not talk about any psychological pathology with anyone that does not understand it(no one really understands but some people understand that they don't understand). You can mention the symptoms, but don't label it, as soon as you insert the word autism, schizophrenia, depression people will apply their own preconceived deeply flawed interpretations of the problem.
On one hand it's true and people will apply their preconceived interpretations, on the other hand if nobody talks about it these interpretations and biases will never change. People have these biases because they don't know anybody with autism/schizophrenia/depression personally, but once they know and realize that it's a human just like them, they could understand it better.
Disclosing anything not directly related to the work (i.e. health/future plans/dreams/difficulties/struggles) at work is a terrible idea. Every single person who thinks or advocates otherwise lives in a bubble -- betting on a correct outcome is no difficult than betting on rationality of the market.
Remember, market can be irrational for longer than you can remain solvent.
> Disclosing anything not directly related to the work (i.e. health/future plans/dreams/difficulties/struggles) at work is a terrible idea. Every single person who thinks or advocates otherwise lives in a bubble -- betting on a correct outcome is no difficult than betting on rationality of the market.
Just to be clear, what you are describing is a world in which nobody could (or should) ever request or receive reasonable accommodations under the ADA.
That really depends on what you want out of your workplace.
If all you want is money to fuel the rest of your life then i think you are on point.
Personally i think life is to short/demanding, one needs to find an appropriate balance between work and personal life. I would rather have the people at work be friends than foes.
>I would rather have the people at work be friends than foes
Sure, but for how many of us is that going to be a reality? You have to protect yourself, and the vast majority of people work for a paycheck because there is no other option.
I don't think this issue of disclosure is about being friends at work, not really. In different venues, I've come across this idea of "bringing your whole self to work", and I think this issue of disclosure falls along these lines. It seems to be the new mantra.
I don't want to bring my whole self to work, I don't want to identify with my job or my company or see myself as part of a tribe. As far as my job is concerned I just want to do good work. And so I really don't identify with this notion.
I would say that at this point, the relationship between employee and employer is generally rather adversarial. I accept the situation such as it is, but I don't relish that. I don't want to bring my whole self to that. I want to wall my real self off from that. I have a job because I need money to do the things I actually want to do. So in that sense, sure "all I want is money". That is a normal reaction to how things are.
As someone with many Aspergers tendencies, I can tell you that most work, school and social environments are not great for us.
While I think it is annoying to have Aspergers and be expected to act “normally,” I can see it would have many downsides for people to claim Aspergers status and bring this into regular office environments rather than develop coping strategies.
It takes very, very little time for normal people to come to understand that I am “weird” and that I don’t provide expected responses to normal interactions.
This year, my social weirdness has resulted in situations where I have gotten into fights with my coworkers who decided to attempt to bully me after they realized that I don’t have normal social skills.
Unfortunately, the only techniques I have at my disposal are to make it very, very costly for people to bully me. I don’t have the ability to come up with proper responses to nasty comments in real time. When people say things to me I don’t like, it takes me a long time to articulate to myself what the problem is and why it made me mad and by then it is too late - That person now thinks I am an easy target and persists in their behavior.
After reading and learning more about Aspergers I realize that this trait and many others are common. It was very helpful to learn from other people with this sort of condition and have developed coping strategies. I truly recommend doing a lot of research (not on the internet, I mean real books written by qualified people) if you suspect you have Aspergers.
I tend think about something someone said or did to me for several days and even months. I seethe.
Normal people tend to have situationally appropriate responses to small provocations, I develop anxiety about them.
I manage a team of people and get paid over $330,000 / year. The idea that I still act and feel this way is insane and so immature but that’s how my brain works.
[Not op] Salted earth. It does backfire, especially for that relationship. Usually if it goes to that extreme I'm not going to be able to save the relationship. But anyone who witnesses you burning a whole forest down to kill a squirrel tends to leave you be after that.
This highlights some of the underlying irrationalities and insanities of "normal" society. The rational thing is low effort - not giving a damn unless it is somehow actually relevant. Yet management insists upon setting up additional talent filters for petty reasons and go with what flatters themselves above all else. We see things like the most social positions - managers having closed offices while giving open office plans and cubicles to the people with conventrative work.
Be aware that not every person has your best interest at heart and occasionally you may come across people who will abuse your weakness if you put yourself into a vulnerable position or paint yourself as an easy target. This may be a fringe issue but if you declare yourself to be socially inept/awkward, the sharks may come.
I just got completely marginalized at my last workplace after they realized how socially inept I was and basically forced out the door. It also happened my job before that.
Both were startups though.
Wondering if that's pretty common or if I just had bad workplaces?
Bullies will be bullies and it is not uncommon for people wanting to belong to a group or take sides at the expense of someone else. This sort of behaviour seems to be common especially during childhood in schools where someone will be 'it', if you know what I mean.
Now don't take this the wrong way and think the world is against you and don't get bitter. These moments can be great moments to learn and grow up, and not every act that seems hostile is, or is at least deliberately so in full awareness of the perpetrator.
Like it or not, the onus is also on you to fix your shit, whatever that may be, and try to understand these situations and what behaviour on your part may contribute to landing in them.
I'm talking in general terms not knowing anyone's situation but mine.
There are jobs where I would absolutely never disclose being on the spectrum. Typical corporate 9-5 stuff. But my current gig is as a technical director at an art museum, and my aspie super power is technical stuff (as it relates to this) like lighting and sound. I have disclosed being on the spectrum to many people at work, and they didn't bat an eyelid. It's super mellow and SO not corporate. It's great. A perfect fit, really.
A lot of is is me hiding in the booth, so I don't have to interact with people if I don't want to, but pre-show stuff ALWAYS requires me to interact with artists. Thankfully I can fake that part. Usually when I demonstrate competence at the task at hand they don't care about the rest.
It’s not really that simple. As another commenter says, you have to disclose before you can formally request accommodation. And, given the disadvantages of doing so, it’s often not a good idea to disclose until there are problems. By that point, the employer might not be very cooperative, and, even if they are, the process of requesting accommodation need not be made easy or explained well. And, if things still go south despite disclosure and attempts to request accommodation, the options for dealing with that are limited. Basically, you can make an EEOC complaint, and that’s it. You will not win any friends by doing so, either.
How is that supposed to make things better? You get all the disadvantages of filing with the EEOC, combined with all the stress and headaches of a lawsuit, and you get to be known as “that person who sued their employer.”
I feel like it's an open secret that a huge percentage [1] of people in the tech industry are somewhere on the autism spectrum. Whether they've been formally diagnosed is another question.
[1] I don't have numbers, but greater than 50% wouldn't be surprising.
Although I do agree that the percentage of people on the spectrum is higher in tech industry than in other industries, I think it's not higher than some 5-15%. When you ascribe to every introverted person being on the spectrum, you neglect the significance of it in people who really have it. It's like you're saying "yeah, we're all like this, so don't pretend you can't do this or that".
Noticing that someone doesn't choose to play all the reindeer games the same way I would play them is different from discovering that they're fundamentally incapable.
Disclosing a mental illness at work sounds like the worst idea you could ever have.
I think it's better not to say anything and, if you wrong someone because of your illness, maybe tell that person in private and apologise. Unfortunately doing that makes it sound like an excuse.
I'm not saying I have a better solution. Some people simply aren't apt for the real world. That's sad but it's the truth.
Bingo. The "real world" isn't some static thing set upon us; we shape it both actively (e.g. fighting for suffrage) and passively (sitting around being sad for ourselves).
Autism is not a mental illness. I am not mentally ill. I was born with a disability which causes social impairments and a host of other symptoms. Being Autistic is beyond my control, and is untreatable other than just trying my damndest to “pass” as neurotypical whereever and however I can. I find it incredibly insulting and damaging to label me as mentally ill.
The modern discussion whether it's a mental illness or not is just tiptoeing around the issue for non-medical concerns.
Mental illness doesn't mean "crazy person", there's a huge number of such cases, and half the population or more is affected by one or more (20% on any given year).
There's nothing insulting or damaging to call someone as mentally ill (except for types who think it means "crazy person" or some such).
In fact, there shouldn't be anything insulting or damaging about being bodily ill as well!
The bottom lime is that autism is associated with certain impairments that affect our mental states (on the spectrum, have a close relative with another mental illness). It's not some X-men like new state of being that people should aspire too, but it's something we should respect, try to heal if we can, and learn to live with and support.
There is no “modern discussion” around if autism is a mental illness. It is settled scientific consensus that Autism is a cognitive disability and NOT a mental illness. This “modern discussion” you speak of consists of a single commenter on Hacker News making an unsubstantiated arm-chair assertion that Autism is a mental illness. I’m sorry to bust your bubble, but you are not important enough to overturn settled scientific understanding and consensus with a single comment on a web forum. Now, I want you to understand that no matter how you classify different disabilities and afflictions inside your mind, when you speak such mistruths you influence and affwct the world views of others. Other people are going to read or listen to your comments and they are going to begin to conflate Autism with mental illness. They are going to loop me in with folks who can be treated with medication, or with psycho therapy. They are going to wonder if I’m going to exhibit symptoms of mental illnesses since I am autistic. They are going to wonder if I am depressed, or have anger or personality issues. They are going to wonder if I am a danger to them, and in turn, that mentality is going to cause direct harm and danger to me and other people on the spectrum. It will deprive us of opportunities. It will lessen our ability to make social bonds, in which we already struggle. Your words have power, and in this case I find it disappointing that rather than use your words to benefit others you have chosen, through arrogance, to engage in half-truths and misunderstanding at the detriment of myself and others. Please, consider if it’s more important for you to put forth an opinion that is actively harmful to others, or to approach your discussions and opinions in a more empathetic way.
>There is no “modern discussion” around if autism is a mental illness. It is settled scientific consensus that Autism is a cognitive disability and NOT a mental illness.
Actually autism is officially described and classified in the DSM-5 Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of _Mental Disorders_.
The rest of ad hominem, I will ignore. For one, I find the language insulting to people with mental health issues (even if one considers autistic people to not be among them), as if they're lesser people.
E.g. "They are going to wonder if I am a danger to them, and in turn, that mentality is going to cause direct harm and danger to me and other people on the spectrum." -- because people with mental illnesses are necessarily of "danger" to others?
>They are going to wonder if I’m going to exhibit symptoms of mental illnesses since I am autistic.
Well, they will be right to wonder it.
Even for the mental illness issues that you would agree to qualify as such (from depression to OCD), are commonly associated with autism, much more so than in the general population.
I hope that as you grow as a person you will adopt a more empathetic attitude towards others, and see how your words harm or have the potential to harm others.
If you want to call Autism a “mental disorder” you would be correct to call it that, as it is a neurodevelopmental disorder and cognitive disability. It is not however a mental illness. The DSM V classifies a lot of different disorders, some of which are mental illnesses and some of which are not. Conflating that something being defined in the DSM V also classifies it as a mental illness when the writers of the DSM V were very careful not to use that language, shows the very misunderstanding which I am trying very hard to show you (and failing) at best, and intentionally misleading on your part at worst.
Just the fact that you feel so offended about being called "mentally ill" shows how you feel about actually mentally ill people, like depressed people. That's all there is to it.
I am not concerned with how I perceive mentally ill people. Mental illness touches different facets of my family in different ways. I am quite familiar with it, it’s challenges and it’s stigmas. I don’t look down on mentally ill people, because I love and am friends with many people who suffer from mental illness.
My objections are due to the societal biases that others hold against mentally ill people. My problem with calling Autism a mental illness is twofold. 1. It is factually and scientifically incorrect. Full stop. End of story. This should be enough for you, but whatever. 2. When you call Autism a mental illness you take a group of people who struggle and suffer and loop them in with another group of people that struggle suffer. Autism has enough social stigma attached to it already. When you apply more social stigma to it by attaching other labels to it, you are actively causing more harm than good.
It would be one thing to offend based on a factual argument, but you have neither facts nor a moral/ethical argument on your side. There is no reason for one to call Autism a mental illness other than a factual misunderstanding of Autism. To cling to that ignorance and claim superiority is both arrogant and egotistical. It lacks any semblance of empathy whatsoever.
Its not factually incorrect whatsoever, you just don't like it. Autism is a mental disorder, no question about it--you even made the point by calling it a "cognitive disabilty." Cognitive meaning "relating to, being, or involving intellectual activity" and disability being obvious. Calling something a synonym of itself and arguing that its a completely different thing is pretty obtuse.
In the sense that they’re different things that can overlap, sure. A disability is any condition (including mental or neurological disorders) that causes significant impairment in one or more activities of daily living. A mental illness is simply a condition that is best dealt with by psychotherapy or other psychiatric treatments. One can be significantly disabled by a mental illness or not.
As a person who suffers from a biologically testable disability, I find it insulting and damaging to the truly handicapped to lump Autism in with provable conditions. I've had a hard time understanding why it's so socially acceptable to wave a flag when convenient and stand up for justice when there's no scientific backing beyond the justification for homeopathic remedies. Society is a complex organism and while we are making inroads - not labeling people as witches and burning them alive - stumping for a wishy-washy grab-bag of symptoms to label a true disability is a pretty hard sell. I'm not claiming you're mentally ill for having autism, but then again sometimes I wonder why people voluntarily choose to take pride in defective functions.
I know in my case it's because prior to finding out about being on the spectrum and having Aspergers I just thought it was everyone else who was defective. For some people on the spectrum including me, the biggest difference was that everyone else was some kind of weirdo who knew rules without being told them. As a kid, you are told to be careful on a road and that's why you are, you are told not to have your hands on a soccer ball but you aren't told make sure to lie to people when it comes to certain conditions. In a way, it's weirder than most people figure out without being told by anyone okay don't tell people that they are fat and don't ask questions about why someone is so certain that their religion is correct.
I had to be taught that but outside of that, most people who didn't spend too much time with me then think I am smarter than average and are willing to rely on me for help with some stuff. I am proud because Asperger's is related to how one's brain is wired if I was embarrassed or considered Asperger's to be defective it would take a toll on my mental health because then I would be thinking of myself of a defective thing and defective things are usually thought of as something that should be thrown out.
Isn't a major part of Aspergers the inability to see that the human mind is irrational by nature.
And sometimes the inability to see that the objective world that exists is not the same objective world that we see. Due to how the brain interprets sensory information from the objective world.
An example taken from your own text:
The reason that you are not supposed to tell a fat person that they are fat is cause by saying you are fat you are essentially pointing to that persons irrational behavior(eating to much).
The fat person does not want to think about their own overweight, it will lead to them start thinking about their own irrationality. Something that will then cause them to feel that they are a failed person, causing negative emotions.
The more that I learn, the more I realize how much medicine as a field is in its infancy. It is far safer to assume that supposed conditions are real and science just hasn't caught up yet.
Autism is the ADD/ADHD of the 'oughts. Overly diagnosed (come on, 1:55, really?), misunderstood (is the creepy guy who stares too much and never says anything a freak or is he autistic?), and often times used like a crutch by those who both want an easy out and/or don't want to take responsibility for their actions (oh, I have mild Aspberger syndrome and your offending me).
The notion of a "spectrum" is ludicrous too, how ever can we lump in someone who's a bit slow yet fully independent with someone like the above poster who's 8/10 year olds can't go potty on their own? This is a disservice to people on both ends of that "spectrum."
> Some people simply aren't apt for the real world
I'm confused by the juxtaposition of this statement and your preceding thoughts- it seems like quite a jump to say what seems to boil down to "Existing with mental illness at work and feeling like you have to hide it sucks" and then expand that to "People with mental illness aren't fit for the real world".
Who decides who gets to be classified as "apt for the real world"? There are a ton of depressed people out there, and for that matter, a ton of people who feel like they got screwed at birth for having the wrong color skin, the wrong sexual proclivities, the wrong family, etc. I think if you were to add up the people who feel like they've had to fight through a disadvantage, you'd find that they're the majority, not the minority of people in the real world.
"In this case, regarding autism, it's called "spectrum" for a reason"
Yes, it may be easy on HN to forget because we get a lot of "high functioning autists" here, but the word "autism" encomposses the 15-year old boy I met stuck in a wheelchair, whose only verbal communication is what I can only describe as a "bark" when something was not to his liking.
"Mental illnesses" do not top out at "a bit quirky". It is neither inaccurate nor insensitive to observe that some people are simply incapable of functioning in the real world. In fact holding the belief that there is no such thing can itself harm people by preventing them from getting the highly-invasive help they need.
That said, if we're talking about people who are in the workplace at all, we're not really talking about that set of people.
I read the quoted statement in the context of the rest of your comment, which pertains to a workplace environment where the subject already lives and works in the real world, so they'd be on the higher-functioning end of that spectrum. There are certainly people who don't fall into that end, though.
I've been forced out of my last two workplace due to being socially inept. I'm pushing 40 and have never had a relationship with a girl or made a friend or been invited to a party.
It's not physically incapacitating until you kill yourself which is the signal society sends you constantly.
Sure, I agree autism can be very debilitating and pose a heavy burden on the individual and the family. In my family we tend to fell on the lighter side of the spectrum.
My 5yo boy is officially diagnosed and he is really smart. My father was definitely autistic although never diagnosed.
I was lucky enough to have a false twin brother (11 months younger) that was the most popular guy at school while I was the weirdest (until I started emulating his behavior in social situations).
Today I believe my brain is just wired differently. Some of the most powerful structures in the brain (the GPUs) are devoted analyzing faces and reactions; in my case they are used for other purposes so I had to learn how to process faces using the CPU which is a bit tiresome but works well enough.
I fall on the "lighter" side too, in the sense that it's not as immediately obvious. It's still been really hard when I have to do high intensity CPU tasks while also doing things that people use their GPU for, like whiteboard interviews or remembering stories
I have trouble perceiving other people's emotions, reading body language and facial expressions; it takes more effort to remember faces/names; have other social oddities; but it is hardly incapacitating and you learn how to deal with it. Insomnia (I'm able to sleep only 4h/day and wake up rested) and having hyper focus for my special interests are some perks.
Insomnia is not a perk. Where did you get this idea from? It's not healthy to sleep less than 7 hours on routine basis. It's irrelevant how you feel during the day.
I had a friend in elementary school that was diagnosed aspergers. I mean... the kid was a bit strange, don't get me wrong, but it wasn't really going to affect him anymore than other people's oddities affect them. He grew up, mellowed out, and is doing just fine. On the other hand, a lot of 'normal' people ended up as complete losers.
I mean... the oddities that led him to be diagnosed included things like lack of eye contact and bizarre play habits. But, honestly, these are rather unimportant in the grand scheme of things, because the 'normies' were missing pretty fundamental, yet non-diagnosable, personality traits, such as ambition and conscientiousness
I've been forced out of my last two workplace due to being socially inept. I'm pushing 40 and have never had a relationship with a girl or made a friend or been invited to a party.
What society wants and signals to you constantly is for you to kill yourself because you're not worth anything.
Hyperfocus is not a specific indication of autism. It is also observed in AD(H)D patients, as complementary mode of attention deficits. If it worked such that you cannot focus on anything, ADHD would be very easy to diagnose.
Thanks, but I was disappointed by this response. Are you able to specify _any_ "specific indication of autism" which is _not_ also observed in people with other conditions? That seems an impossibly strict condition to meet, let alone in the context of spitballing, non-clinically, about ways in which some aspects of traits often associated with autism might in fact be beneficial.
Along with hyperfocus, a tendency toward honesty is another such trait. "But people without autism are sometimes honest, too" would be a comparable response.
"I'm not saying I have a better solution. Some people simply aren't apt for the real world. That's sad but it's the truth"
I agree with the parent that you really want to think through the benefits of reporting a mental illness at work. How you will be treated depends on your employer, your boss, and the HR people involved in the discussion.
However as someone who struggles with a very real mental issue myself and has managed or worked with other people who do, please don't get discouraged like the parent poster seems to be. "apt for the real world" is not a static definition. If you struggle with mental illness, do your best to make the cost-benefit equation of employing you positive for your employer (and society). It won't be easy, but if you find an employer or line of work where you have the flexibility to create some guardrails around your mental illness in a way that allows you to create value, you will be surprised at what you can achieve.
20 years ago I was a failed engineering student who could barely pass most classes but did ok at and enjoyed practical coding. 15 years ago, after convincing a very good grad school that they should evaluate me on the basis of the actual code I had written and my GRE scores, not just my academics, I became a failed grad student who could barely pass many of my classes but enjoyed almost all of them and excelled at some. A decade ago, after dropping out from gradschool, getting fired from my first job as an engineer, and convincing a startup to hire me at less than market rate for a jack-of-all-trades sales-engineer type, I started doing ok and having a ball at work. Most of my colleagues would have told you I was a mediocre engineer, but I created enough value for the cost-benefit balance to be positive even if barely so. 5 years ago, after my painfully discovered role became a traditional desk job due to events outside my control, and I started failing again, I quit my job and started a business. My business has grown to several locations now. I still feel like a failure every day, because I fail at tasks most ordinary people would coast through. But giving myself time by being patient and persisting has allowed me to find a couple of things I am better at than most people and create an organization around me that makes up for my deficits enough to have a positive cost-benefit balance for the world.
Most people who work with me would tell you (and some tell me to my face) that I am simply not apt for the real world. And yet my business employs scores of people and serves a real need in multiple communities. I would have put the odds of this happening at close to zero at almost every point of time along my journey.
Accept yourself, but don't resign yourself to failure. If you fail, learn a little bit from that failure and change the next thing you try a little bit based on what you learn. Don't stop trying to create value for the world. You will find your niche. And, as that brilliant a*hole with evident mental issues said, don't expect this kind of clarity when you look towards the future, these dots only connect looking back after 5 or 10 years.
Thanks for sharing. Like you, I've done plenty of "failing up"[1] in my 20-yr career. I'm also running my own business now and -- though it was a difficult path to get where I am now -- have more income than ever before, as well as more freedom than virtually anyone else I know who isn't retired.
[1] cf "How to Fail at almost Everything and Still Win Big" by Scott Adams
This is the best attitude one can have. The tendency to gravitate towards a self imposed goal/direction and persevere is unlikely NOT TO yield results!!!
>Some people simply aren't apt for the real world. That's sad but it's the truth.
Sure, but as civilized people and not savage beasts, we can accommodate them. In fact if we aren't already under some disability ourselves, we are still just an e.g. car accident away from being under one.
If you work somewhere where that is the situation I would highly recommend trying to find a job that isn't as messed up. In the province of Ontario, employers are specifically needed to allow you to take your sick days for if you are feeling overwhelmed or something else is going on that is bad for your mental health.
Asperger's Syndrome isn't considered a mental illness it's considered a neurodevelopmental disorder. There are many people who are neurotypical who due to circumstances will have trouble with handling interactions with the outside world I don't see why being on the spectrum should be considered something worse than being a person who drinks alcohol and then insults someone.
Oh, I was thinking of the fact that someone who gets drunk at a gathering that is work adjacent who insults people and you don't get fired some of your co-workers might not like you but you can still move up the corporate ladder if it's just a not too often of a thing.
Because a lots of people on the spectrum learned (or forced to learn) how to hide the obvious behaviours and you just can't tell about them.
After I was diagnosed and I invested some time into studying about autism, I realised that there is handful of colleges, who are most probably on the spectrum, but they have a really systematic approach on hiding shortcomings and using autistic traits to their advantage. Also I'm pretty sure I have collegues, who hide it so well, that nobody notices it at work.
I've noticed this as a common unfortunate side effect of disclosing anything that has a stigma attached and explains why the upper echelons of most pursuits (politics, business, sport) still tend to be quite homogenous. While a small but ever increasing spotlight is being shone on issues faced by various minorities in the workplace (particularly by race and gender), disabilities and disorders tend to be less obvious and people are less keen to talk about them.
I'm autistic myself and have shielded myself from a lot of these issues by running my own company and delegating things I'm weak at but I've been very lucky to reach that point and my employees are very patient with me.
More work needs to happen to make standard workplaces take advantage of the many skills autistic people can bring to companies but without putting a glass ceiling on where they can go. The tech industry, in particular, is ahead of the game on this, I believe, due to some common autistic traits actually being an advantage. Companies like Microsoft have also actively developed programs to engage with and hire autistic people: https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/accessibility/2018/04/02/au...