"If you are in the EU, you are not allowed to use this website." Pretty much the same solution for kids under 13 years of age (which is to say, they of course still do use these sites, they simply lie about it which shifts the burden...)
Not that I agree with this copyright directive, it's horrible and I intend to find out which of my representatives supported it such that I can do something about it.
But the EU, as a whole, is the world's biggest market and it is a common market in spite of legal and cultural differences between countries. So that's pretty naive.
And if companies think the "compliance cost" is too big, that's fine, it means they are leaving money on the table for their competition to pick up. The best outcome is actually the EU getting some real alternatives to US services that are deemed to be indispensable.
So personally, as an EU citizen, for companies no longer wanting to serve EU citizens, all I can say is don't let the door hit you on your way out.
> the EU, as a whole, is the world's biggest market
Except it isn't really a single market. Each country has a unique language, culture and body of law. The cost of taking a German product to France is much higher than expanding from California to Texas and New York. (California, Texas and New York having a higher combined GDP than France and Germany [1].)
I too am an EU citizen, living in the Netherlands. I am also an American citizen and have lived there.
Although I generally prefer the Dutch set of laws to the American, Dutch laws stifle innovation. The difference in even simple things like setting up a business, hiring an employee, and ensuring compliance with local laws is insane.
Every time I go to America I get requests for random things that either don't exist in the Netherlands or are criminally expensive. Bengay cream here costs €16.20 for 57g, only available at special online shops. In America you can buy it everywhere, €5.84 for 113g. That's one example. You might criticize it for being too arcane, but there are hundreds of thousands. Each one of these things costs double the Amazon price or more for popular products: RAM, angle steel, many batteries, sanding belts, IEMs, pumps, permethrin, LEDs. That's just off the top of my head. Every time I need something it's a game: will I get lucky and pay 40% extra, or will it be only available for 200% the price? Or even worse, not available at all?
You want to sell those things above? Go ahead. A few of them are even triple (!!!) the American retail price, so you'll make bank, right? Start a business. But you won't, and nobody else will, because it's tremendously difficult to start a business here.
I can understand higher taxes make products more expensive - sure. Those taxes provide the benefits I enjoy in a country like the Netherlands. I can even deal with the cost of shipping from America. But I cannot deal with paying double or triple the cost for hundreds of thousands of various products. And laws like this just continue the movement in the wrong direction.
Netherlands has a lot of issues, but setting up a company is not one of them. And taxes are high, but as a company they are good on an EU scale (and going down) and far easier to deal with than in, say, Spain.
I have no clue what you are talking about with those products though; that's the case in many countries. In the south of Spain I pay more for a fridge or a bath than if I import them from the Netherlands. NL is an expensive country for some things. In the US you can get Bengay cream (i have no idea what that is by the way) for 5.84 but university and healthcare can bankrupt you. Give me NL every day as long as that lasts; these consumer products are not fundamentals while education and healthcare are imho.
It upsets me that this is the highest comment below my post because you completely missed my point.
I specifically said that I prefer the Dutch way in general, and that I don't mind paying higher taxes to support this. Hell, I live here, I hold a Dutch passport, and I vote for the related causes.
However, what I hate is certain aspects of the regulatory environment that choke out startups. That has nothing to do with healthcare or education but rather to do with very restrictive EU + Dutch laws.
Making it difficult to start a business makes the incumbents more powerful, and the incumbents already have high prices and limited selection here in the Netherlands.
[partially copied from a comment of mine below]
Starting a company here in the Netherlands is quite difficult. It involves compliance with every law related to your business, hiring employees, purchasing services for the business, etc etc. All of these things are more onerous, expensive and difficult here.
I've been involved with many startups on both sides of the ocean. In America (for better or worse) you get up and go. In Europe, simple things like creating a contract and paying someone are way more difficult and the barriers are much higher. Everything from the address you register your business at to protecting yourself legally is an issue.
It's difficult to explain exactly how debilitating the regulatory environment is to someone who hasn't experienced it firsthand. Startups are fragile. Many companies that are now unicorns were at some point on the brink of collapse for a good bit of their early life. Just one trigger can kill a startup, and additional regulations can be that trigger.
Sure, there are other things crippling innovation in Europe: a total lack of venture capital and fewer "temporarily embarrassed millionaires" play a big part.
I agree with you on most these things, I just think I misunderstood the ‘rant’ about the more expensive goods.
And yes, some parts of starting companies can be hard, thats what you have an accountant for who does that. Doing it yourself is madness in most/all of Europe I think. Might be easier in the US but I do think many of these think help rather that stifle (I like that you cannot hire/fire people on a whim for instance), however I agree it usually goes too far. And in that regard NL is still one of the easiest; ES, FR, DE are all far worse. Bureaucracy went a few levels beyond there.
I too had companies in a bunch countries, but not the US, and found Spain the hardest and the UK the easiest. HK in between. But after you opened a company and have the employees, I prefer the Netherlands. The tax actually seem to be willing to help you (had many company tax audits over the past 25 years in different countries and different companies and the NL ones seem to be by far the most relaxed).
But sorry for the misunderstanding (still think the product rant was a bit off on this topic as it probably is really not related), and I agree with you. But what is the solution. I would hate to see the NL/EU turn into the US (as it is now) and most of the fixes that countries try are incentives that usually make the rich richer, get companies in power etc. The end game there is bad for humanity in my opinion. But maybe you have actual solutions in mind without (those) sideeffects. In which case; ga in de politiek alsjeblieft!
Setting up a business also involves compliance with every law related to your business, hiring employees, purchasing services for the business, etc etc. All of these things are more onerous, expensive and difficult here.
I've been involved with many startups on both sides of the ocean. In America (for better or worse) you get up and go. In Europe, simple things like creating a contract and paying someone are way more difficult and the barriers are much higher. Everything from the address you register your business at to protecting yourself legally is an issue.
Come on. Have you even read my other comments? I'm NOT saying to scrap worker protection and I'm NOT saying that all minimum standards should be killed.
My point is this: The EU has a ridiculous amount of bullshit laws, like this one, that make it harder to be a startup. These laws do not benefit the consumer at all.
It's idiotic arguments like yours - where people automatically assume hurting businesses is being pro-consumer - that has got us to the current stifling regulatory climate.
Literally this one! The very law this thread is here because of!
Furthermore, it's a death by a thousand cuts scenario. It's not as if the Kill All Startups Act of 2009 is the one thing crushing European innovation, and by repealing that bill we solve all problems. Everything from transferring shares in a company to complying with GDPR to the address you register your business at to how to protect yourself legally is difficult here.
For many laws involved, I like the law but dislike parts of the implementation. For example GDPR. Given the choice between GDPR and no GDPR I'd prefer to have the GDPR. But there are a lot of issues in the implementation. There's entirely contradictory advice on the Internet from trustworthy sources on what is and isn't compliant. A number of lawyers suggest the use of arcane popups where you have to manually deselect each of hundreds of individual trackers. This strategy is used on a large number of websites now, including many popular ones. Is this compliant? Nobody knows! Even after spending many hours researching the GDPR and carefully crafting a plan based on advice from trusted lawyers you still might open yourself up to massive liability. The LOW tier of fines is _the higher of_ €20 million or 2% of your annual turnover. By making a simple one-person website I suddenly expose myself to a minimum of €20 million in liability! Now, is that fine likely if you make a good faith effort? No, but it is possible!
Here's an example of my mental calculations for starting a small website, based in the Netherlands vs. the US.
Netherlands: Hmm, I want to start a small website to sell widgets. First, I've got to form the company. Ah, shame, I'm not legally able to register the company at the address I live at. I've got to rent a shell office. Ok, time to go to a sketchy company and pay them €1200 per year to use their mailbox. I start to set up a website; I have to hire a lawyer to interpret many of the complex and interplaying laws around websites, widget selling, and small businesses in the EU and the Netherlands. After spending thousands, I'm ready to set up the site. I build my company, but it is an expensive process as many things I need cost far more than they would in America. Everything from pens to keyboards to hard drives is substantially more expensive. The site is now running, after spending a very large amount of money. I hire someone. They seem motivated and start working hard. Unfortunately, their output slows. My business is choking. I can't afford an unproductive employee. Dutch law means I can't fire the employee without their permission. I've got to take them to court or a public authority. I hire a lawyer again, and prepare the case. I show clear evidence that their firing would be justified. The employee resists, however, drawing out the proceedings. My bank balance nears zero. After a long and hard battle I win; the UWV decides that their firing is justified. As part of the "win", however, I must still compensate the employee many thousands of euros of salary, keep them employed until a set time, and pay myriad other costs. This drives me deep into bankruptcy. Because I am a small business, I am also declared personally bankrupt, and my assets are seized.
America: I want to make a small website to sell widgets. Wow, I get free grants from the government to encourage small businesses, nice! I set up the site and buy some widgets. I hire a local lawyer to ask about any relevant laws I've got to comply with. We sit down and for an hour of his time I now feel that I am sufficiently legally protected, and sleep easy. A few weeks later I get invitations to participate in the local business community. Wow, I'm invited to dinner with the governor of the state! My business expands and I hire someone to start shipping widgets. They work great for a few weeks, but then they stop working as quickly. My business struggles. After giving them some time to improve, their output is still low and I fire them. I hire another employee, and my business grows again; eventually, I retire on a yacht.
I'm sure I can find counter examples. Off the top of my head, aerosol deodorant is 1/3 in the UK vs US. Generic medicines, e.g. Aspirin, Paracetamol, or Ibuprofen are cheaper. Cheese. Basic shit.
Seems like a bit of a straw-man argument anyway. Businesses don't usually pay consumer-oriented taxes like VAT (UK), or Mehrwertsteuer (DE). So which taxes are we talking about exactly?
And importing stuff isn't too hard. If it was a truly Dutch issue, you'd set up the import business in another EU country, and then ship it to the Netherlands once it's inside the Union.
I just checked and it appears Ibuprofen/Paracetamol are roughly 1 cent per pill in reasonable quantities for both sides of the pond. My quick Googling showed Amazon had them for slightly cheaper than British supermarkets in fact. After checking Walmart vs British supermarkets for decent quality cheese (and I'm fairly selective about my cheddar) I found the prices to be roughly equivalent. Prices for edible cheddar are far higher here in the Netherlands, by the way.
I'll give you aerosol deodorant, but I think that comes down to a preference for stick deodorant in America - which costs approximately as much as British aerosol deodorant.
That's one product; I named ten, and I can provide plenty more. The fundamental problem of not having access to many products for a reasonable price is a big one, and unfortunately I think Europeans just accept it.
Look, I'm pro EU, and I'm not protesting the taxes we pay in the Netherlands. I think they go to a good cause, and I don't think high taxes make it impossible to start a business. But onerous regulations do. Shit like this just adds to the pile of things that a startup has to deal with, and eventually it's too much.
I'm not saying that higher regulations are just a Dutch issue, by the way. I think it's a general European issue. I just picked the Netherlands because I live here and have personal experience with startups here (as well as in Germany.)
I generally like the GDPR, but many details of it were moronic. I've visited hundreds of sites where you have to individually deselect each of hundreds of trackers. Is that legal? Nobody knows! The GDPR is a nightmare for startups: you've got tens of contradictory blog posts from legal experts saying different things, 28 individual country regulators involved... Even if your startup is very privacy-friendly, you still (probably - nobody knows for sure!) have to put up one of those ugly big GDPR-walls to every EU visitor, which messes up your user experience and turns people away.
I don't understand the relationship between regulations and the higher cost of bengay. It seems more likely that the higher cost of bengay is due to it being needed to ship across the world.
Is there not a Dutch version of the same compound, manufacturered closer to home?
Bengay was one small example which I picked because it was the first off my head. Assuming that a Dutch import business bought it from the shelves of Walmart for the normal price, sales tax and all, they would have to be somehow paying €260 per kilogram for shipping for the price to be what it is; shipping, or taxes, can in no way come close to explaining the price being five and a half times higher.
There are several methyl salicylate products available in the Netherlands, but they all are available for a similar i.e. extortionate price.
In a country with easier to navigate laws, you can start an import business and sell the products locally. Sure, there is a price increase due to VAT, shipping, handling and business expenses, but this is typically reasonable. For an example of a low-volume perishable food product, I'll take stroopwafels. Here in the Netherlands, where they are made, a 200 gram bag costs between €1.50 and €2.40 depending on the brand. In America, the same 200g bag costs €2.40 at Trader Joes (which is $2.79.)
That's between a 0-60% price increase - and that's for a perishable, low-volume, inexpensive food product sold in a luxury grocery store.
Unfortunately that's only 12% methyl salicylate. The people I know/knew that use Bengay regularly only use the higher strength versions at 30% methyl salicylate.
That said, I do find the UK to be substantially better than the Netherlands for buying a lot of things, despite being only about a hundred miles away. I wish there was an easy way to get products from the UK to the Netherlands - that would make a lot of things easier. There's stuff like Borderlinx but the prices are very high for such a short distance.
I'm an attorney and I've gotten lots of small business owners asking me about GDPR compliance. It's simple in theory -- just disclose your policies, let people delete their data, etc. The mechanics of compliance aren't really the issue. It's concern about enforcement and the uncertainty of it. After I explain jurisdictional issues and the fact that enforcement of GDPR against a purely US-based company is completely untested (and probably not even possible), most just reply "fuck it, we'll just not sell to anyone in Europe."
I agree with the basic concept of GDPR, but the uncertainty around it, the seemingly unclear nature of what exactly it means, and the fact that it will be enforced by each individual EU member potentially differently, all adds up. It's just not worth it.
> If the Data Subject, moves out of the EU border and say becomes an expat, or goes on holiday then their personal data processed under these circumstances is not covered by the GDPR and they are no longer a Data Subject in the context of the GDPR, unless their data is still processed by an organisation "established" in the EU.
Good luck enforcing EU laws in the United States - I'm sure our government would be thrilled to extradite US Citizens (who have never been to the EU) for GDPR violations.
Where the hell did this ridiculous talking point come from? Do you actually know what "law" even is? Of course someone in another jurisdiction can blow off law from another polity if they feel like including when dealing with that polity's citizens, and in turn said polity can try to pursue action against them. But if they do not travel their and have no asset exposure there and their own country has a reasonable level of power and protectiveness of its citizens then the likely responses tend to be limited and passive in nature, such as internet censorship orders.
I mean, this should be utterly obvious given that most Westerners are not complying either laws around the world constantly. We can and do criticize the leadership and governments of any and every country as is our right in ways that are absolutely illegal according to those countries, just for one simple example. The EU is free to get some help from China and make a Great Firewall of their own and censor the net, but if an American blows off something of theirs that is legal in the US and they come demanding the US enforce their law they will get told to pound sand. I mean, this isn't even just normal discretion, in some cases Congress has even flat out made it illegal for the US to honor foreign judgements, such as the 2010 SPEECH Act which rendered all foreign libel judgements unenforceable, unless it's a country that has a direct equivalent to the First Amendment of equal enforcement (I'm aware of zero countries in the world where this is the case) or the defendant would be liable if tried in the US, which in practice means basically any enforcement faces a near insurmountable bar.
That doesn't address things at all, as the top comment and subsequent ones immediately point out. The entire foundational point of a polity is precisely that it defines the law within its own jurisdiction. No country, not even the USA, is powerful enough to actually act as a world government right now, which means that it is completely legally fine and in some cases morally correct to blow off laws of other polities so long as one remains careful to remain out of their power. The EU can demand others do anything they like in the same way any random person on the street could but whether that actually means anything is purely a matter of power.
With respect (and to downvoters as well) I did not take dominotw’s reply as uncivil, and they has my upvote even if I disagree and wish they’d expanded with their own thoughts rather then merely linked a previous thread. It was not an adhom or personal attack of any kind, and expressing serious irritation over a very serious issue should not itself requiring flagging if it’s a real response.
I think the fear is that troll law firms will sprout up that get really good and nailing smaller companies for a minor, relatively harmless infraction.
What would they gain? The company would get a warning from an officer telling them they're not compliant and to address it. If the company fixes the issue, all good. If it doesn't, it gets fined. The troll law firm won't see any money from that fine.
That's not how GDPR is enforced. A relatively minor, harmless infraction will get at most a letter from the regulator asking for it to be fixed. More likely is that fuck all will happen, which is what currently happens in the UK.
Huh, I thought it was grounds for a hefty fine right off the bat. What about horns being trumpeted that GDPR is going to stifle innovation (smaller companies unable to muster the legal force to comply)?
They want you to comply, first and foremost. If you comply, then no fines. If you don't comply, you'll get fined, that's how I understand.
GDPR is a process, it's about pushing companies to good practices through compliance. A lot of it makes sense, for example, making sure your staff understand basic IT security practices, which is no different to health and safety.
> Now, Google appears to be changing its mind. Under a plan called Dragonfly, the company has been testing a censored version of its search engine for the Chinese market.
But it's also far riskier, at leats this time they were assaulted by a law in the EU parliament. In China, the party could just decide they don't like you and get rid of your business.
Are you comparing it to age prompts? Those were way less effective than IP based geo blocks. Since GDPR, a lot of, maybe even most of the time it's not worth the effort to reload the page through a proxy. Especially for stuff linked to me by social media.
