It helped me frame what depression the disease is compared to our broad usage of the word in everyday contexts. In particular it describes both the biology and psychology of depression.
I absolutely adore Sapolsky, and suggest everyone also listen/watch his human behavioral biology lectures. They were infinitely more interesting to me than my intro to psyc class, and perhaps more informative.
Here is a terrible awful fact most people are unaware of: The suicide rate has been going up steadily since 2000 and we are back where we were in the mid 1980s[1]. I found this out by listening to a speech from a mental health convention where the doctor giving the speech was blasting the commonly held idea that antidepressants had solved everything.
Palo Alto has permanent 24/7 suicide-by-train watch at all major crossings. Those folks sit out all night, even in heavy downpours, under a flimsy vinyl personal shelter and what amounts to a beach chair.
I believe the majority of antidepressants like SSRIs, if not all of them, all have warnings that they increase suicidal ideation/suicide, higher than if given placebo. This part of the health industrial complex is perhaps the epitome, where when complex environmental factors are at play, however instead of those being addressed - in the person's life, in the family, in the society - we offer a little, relatively cheap pill and hope that will solve it (along perhaps with years of therapy). The system is broken, it's dis-eased, and it's self-perpetuating to maintain the status quo.
That must have been difficult to write, but it was also difficult to read. I don't think he needed to lash-out at the adults who didn't understand his illness; how was a director in a weekly TV show meant to diagnose and accommodate depression when he's handling dozens of people to a tight schedule?
Its the same in any context of work, unfortunately. You're just a cog and if the cog jams, add more oil or replace it. That's probably not something a teenager would have understood, hence his frustrated efforts to find answers from adults he held in regard, and I don't know what the solution is. But sniping isn't it.
I am glad that Mr Wheaton is in a better condition and hopefully this essay will help others, but it seemed unnecessarily cruel in places.
Surely we can do much better as a society than to defend a system where people are treated as 'cogs', especially when it concerns an industry that is particularly known for abuse of young people?
I've had plenty of jobs where I wasn't just a 'cog', and where my boss treated me like a proper human. I also try to do the same when others work for me. And as far as I can tell this is a perfectly workable approach.
And while I do understand it's easy to adjust to whatever system you find yourself part of, however complicit it makes you, actively defending it as 'just the way it is' and calling its critics 'cruel' just baffles me.
(err, not 'you' as in you. Just people. It's happened to me, so I'm no saint.)
I generally interpret "sniping" as "taking specific, precise shots, meant to inflict maximum damage". So it's hard to interpret Will's comments as sniping when there is no specific, precise target. He doesn't name names, or even productions. He just relates some general scenarios.
And in those events, I don't really see where he tries to lay blame on these unnamed directors and publicists. I see him matter-of-factly describing situations. But the most positive way we could interpret these scenarios--they were themselves overworked that they couldn't see Will's problems--is no place for a child to be.
No, it may not have been Rick Berman's job to make sure Will Wheaton was ok (though, as a producer, that is very, very debatable). But that almost certainly means Will just had no business being in the set of Star Trek (much less debatable for any TNG fan). As a child, you're not really in control of your reality.
> I am glad that Mr Wheaton is in a better condition and hopefully this essay will help others, but it seemed unnecessarily cruel in places.
You're confusing the description of the subject with the subject that is being described:
It's not the essay that is cruel. Cruel is what the essay reflects: the western live in a society where the last dollar is squeezed out of many people in that society.
> He is doing the best he can, and if you all could stop seeing him as a way to put money into your pockets, maybe you could see that he’s suffering and needs help.
I feel like you're being a little easy on this people.
These were not ignorant children is that were making decisions that they didn't understand the consequences to.
These were adult men who had an opportunity to care about someone ( a child ) and instead decided to harass them into complying with their wishes in order to make money.
The buck stops somewhere. Regretting being a piece of shit is worthless. You were still a piece of shit.
This hits pretty close to home. I've been seeing therapists for my anxiety but they haven't really helped much, and occasionally there are times when I just have a pretty bad day.
I have a lot of fear, but there is no physical manifestation of it - it is fear of lack of worth, lack of success, lack of love, lack of acknowledgement. I overanalyze everything that I do and everything others say or do to me.
I could probably point to many things in my past to blame but I'm done trying to retro-analyze myself and just want to fix things.
I'm afraid of trying anti-depressants but I've been seriously thinking about getting a dog (I liked that Wil mentioned that his dogs help him :). I've always wanted one and I feel like at the least doggo would give me some comfort and put things in perspective.
I really appreciate Wil writing his thoughts down and giving suggestions. It definitely helps a lot. I actually keep a running list of tiny things that I've found that help me - things to think about and do, in a moment of anxiety or sadness. One day I hope to share that with others too.
> This hits pretty close to home. I've been seeing therapists for my anxiety but they haven't really helped much
My personal experience was similar - I’ve seen numerous therapists over the years before finally meeting a therapist who did help very much. It seems to me that finding a good therapist - one who is both objectively good at his job and subjectively fits your needs in his work method and personality - is hard.
I think this is something that gets missed a lot. Any therapist worth his salt would tell you that therapy is a long process which requires time to succeed. And that’s true, but it also makes it even harder to find a good fit. None of my non-matching therapists ever told me I should consider a different therapist, even when in retrospect it was the right thing to do after giving their own process a good long chance. While the principal-agent problem may be a factor, I think the main reason is the therapists’ sincere will to help (with their own process). But it also means that unless you are already aware of the fact that therapists aren’t all similar, given the super-subjective nature of the therapy process, you might incorrectly give up on the prospect of finding a good therapist for you, or be stuck with a non-matching therapist for too long.
I wouldn’t usually share something this personal on HN, but I did hoping it might encourage you to not give up on finding your therapist.
Thank you! I have heard this (keep trying other therapists before finding one that works for you) before from others but never from someone who went through it. So I really appreciate you sharing this.
Pets can be helpful, but I really want to say also that you shouldn't be afraid to try antidepressants. There are all sorts of stigmas about how they make you a zombie etc, but the fact is that they do work for people and I know plenty of people who lead normal lives thanks to medicine, myself included, without experiencing that sort of thing. They do not work for everybody, and they do make you feel kinda ill the first few days, but for most people that is temporary and things get better from there.
All I am saying is that it is worth at least discussing with a doctor if you haven't and it may help if therapy has been ineffective. My own case is not that severe, but I know several people who have had their lives change dramatically for the better after starting proper meds after years of suffering because they believed all the stigma around antidepressants and depression in general. It can be hard for someone who is depressed and needs medicine to understand what the drugs are for, because they don't have any perspective on what it's like to feel "normal." Just gaining a bit of that perspective can be enough to help people manage it.
Either way, I hope you can feel better soon. I know what it feels like.
Hmm, yeah maybe I'll talk to a doctor about it. Possibly a psychiatrist? I was actually considering trying CBD oil because I heard some strains work well for anxiety. I know there aren't long-term studies on it but it seems to have less side-effects than anti-depressants. But a doctor would know best, like you said. I'll reconsider anti-depressants. Thanks for the advice!
I recommend trying CBT type stuff which I've done myself for depression with some success. My take on it is your brain is mostly a parallel processor where events trigger ideas which trigger the lower level fear, hunger type stuff often without conscious awareness. But you can fight it by, when you get a bad feeling, analysing it and arguing against - eg for lack of worth, figure out the I'm useless thought and argue - no you actually did better than most people at that or whatever. Keep going for a few days and in my experience you'll feel better. Exercise also is surprisingly effective at times - as much as anti-depressants in studies with positive rather than negative side effects.
This is super interesting. I've never even heard of CBT - thought you misspelled CBD oil :) My issue is that when I'm in the moment I'm sort of paralyzed by it. An attack feels a bit like a runaway train. But lately I've gotten better at taking a step back from the situation. I think in those moments CBT would help a lot. I'll read up more about it, thanks so much for the tip.
I've just started reading a book on CBT[0] that I have been really enjoying so far. I think the gist is that much like logical fallacies, there exist cognitive fallacies that our brains start using that alter the way we perceive reality in a negative way.
Here's [1] a kind of silly example of it in action over on the Overwatch subreddit.
I just bought the book. Only $6 and has some pretty convincing reviews. Thanks! That Overwatch worksheet is hilarious - but kind of eye-opening in a way. Seeing that made me think that I just keep running over the same thoughts over and over in my head (definition of insanity, lol) instead of writing them down and reflecting. Thanks a lot!
Good luck! CBT doesn’t work for everybody, but since you read Hacker News I’d say there is a better chance it will align with you. Stoic philosophy and Mindfulness all touch on similar territory. I found a study of all three allowed me to pick and choose the best tidbits and internalize the processes.
Anxiety and depression are not the same thing. Anxiety can be a somatopsychic side effect of some physical conditions, including low blood sugar, allergies and adrenal or thyroid distress.
I used to suffer a lot of anxiety. Addressing the health issues I listed has largely put a stop to it. (In spite of being prone to being suicidal, I am not particularly prone to depression and have only suffered brief bouts of it once in a great while.)
I'm pretty healthy I think, at least in the aspects you listed since I get checked out every year. I'm glad it worked for you though. One thing I need to do more is exercise, so based on your experience at least maybe that will make a big difference.
The anxiety issues have been with me since I was a kid, but it gets more aggravated in certain situations, especially for the last couple of years. There are physical manifestations of it, even when I was a kid.
It is pretty debilitating especially when I'm in public. Or if I'm alone I just get totally trapped in my worries for hours.
I react allergically to a lot of things, yet doctors only ever identified one thing that I was officially allergic to in their opinion. Just removing stuff from my life that I react badly to has done wonders.
Not intended as argumentative. More like food for thought.
Best of luck in finding answers that work for you.
The part where he described saying goodbye and playing out that being the last time he'd see someone got me. I've found that health anxiety and irrational fears are by far the worst rabbit holes to start falling into. I've had periods of years where my mind is entirely consumed by these things. I feel like fears rooted in reality are at least tangible enough to not be horrifying.
The things that make me talented feel like mind diseases. Pattern recognition is so easily polluted with ruminations and cyclical thinking.
The only way I've been able to cope is by becoming numb. The more uncertainty I acknowledge as existing, the worse I feel. I don't feel particularly good though. Nothing in the world feels like "enough" to occupy my mind anywhere near as much as the negative things.
SSRIs can aid in that numbing. For me it has somewhat. I haven't found that they have given me any sort of increase in motivation or excitement for life, though.
> as a white, heterosexual, cisgender man in America, I live life on the lowest difficulty setting
Seriously, what is this shit? Is there a grant I'm not aware of that's given to straight white men? Free housing somewhere? I'm white and straight and American and I'm pretty sure my children's education is paid for by my near constant work (and my wife's) not by the magical fairy dust that was sprinkled on me at birth.
In no way am I saying Wil does not suffer from depression, but the "my life is perfect, how could I possibly be depressed?" spin rings false. Child stars that go on to find middling success and depression (and substance abuse) later in life is more the norm than the exception isn't it?
As far as I know he never almost died because of drugs, never had a public meltdown and is still gainfully employed, so I'd say he navigated things better than most. I can't speak from experience, but in no way would I say that the life of a child star is easy. It's probably one of the hardest things you could ask a young person to do.
But I have no sympathy for someone who gives in to prevailing rhetoric about "privilege". That is just as moronic as saying "women can't program" or "black people are good at sports".
I'd say applying the 'principle of charity' would help here.
He's probably in an environment where this is a hot button issue, so he's addressing it specifically to avoid your kind of derailing comment (but I guess from what some would call the SJW audience).
More importantly, he's describing a feeling that many people with depression suffer from, a kind of 'impostor syndrome' that can make the whole thing worse and actively prevent people from finding help. I've felt it too, and I've known plenty of people who are the opposite of 'white, heterosexual, cisgender man' who have felt it too. You think so little of yourself that you don't even allow yourself to be depressed, because others have it so much worse. It doesn't help, and it's bullshit.
I do find myself confused that the fact that he considers himself privileged and wants to use this for good is somehow offensive enough to you to make you lose all sympathy. Is that how you actually feel, or are you exaggerating?
Seriously, what is this shit? Is there a
grant I'm not aware of that's given to
straight white men? Free housing
somewhere? I'm white and straight and
American and I'm pretty sure my
children's education is paid for by my
near constant work (and my wife's) not
by the magical fairy dust that was
sprinkled on me at birth
He is referencing this short essay by John Scalzi:
It's called a stereotype, and it depends more on other aspects than skin color. Mostly on how you communicate (vocabulary, grammar, accent, gestures) and how you look (beauty, illness cues, dress code).
White, heterosexual, cis-gender male that "looks like a junkie", acts disrespectful and speaks slang? Good luck getting authorities to consider you a "respectable citizen, handle with care".
I'm not denying skin color or gender are traits often included in stereotypes, but it is not the only one, nor the most relevant.
> White, heterosexual, cis-gender male that "looks like a junkie", acts disrespectful and speaks slang? Good luck getting authorities to consider you a "respectable citizen, handle with care".
Yes, that's why I said "can get": it's obviously not an absolute. In some places and situations it's considerably harder for people who aren't a white, heterosexual, cis-gender male to get pegged as someone who should be treated with consideration.
He’s better off than almost everyone in Somalia but worse off than Baron von Trump. Identity politics is divisive no matter what, and it looks really weak to appologize for being included in the most hated group of someone else’s victim-hierarchy.
I think the goal of feminism is to indirectly give white men a complex about themselves, life or women, similar to the chip-on-the-shoulder a large fraction of African-American people unfortunately have... creating an endless cycle of punishment, self-doubt, self-sabotage, bitterness and othering just because “we” can.
Last time i checked in the us universities there was no grant from me and many grants for people having a different "specificity" than me (woman / black / native / disabled...)
I lost most of my twenties to anxiety and depression. Started therapy at 29, finished university with only a Bachelor's degree at 31.
The worst aspect was that through all this time my mind was always telling me that, yes, I have some problems, but what if I don't have anything at all? Maybe if I ever did see a doctor about it, I would be wasting their time. It wasn't even about whether or not they would take me seriously. My biggest fear was that a doctor would tell me that there's nothing wrong with me. It's really the worst of all the "what if"'s that Wil was talking about, because that was the one that kept me from getting help.
Only depression and anxiety? That sucks, and I wouldn’t wish those on anyone... but try also having ADD, mild Asperger’s, home drama, stuttering (silent block, way more awkward than repeating)... oh and being not a celebrity, unemployable, unpersonable, broke and homeless. It’s all my fault, I know, I’m lazy for going to interviews and people not liking me for reasons/feedback they’ll never mention.
Depression isn’t good or victim-hierarchy laudible, get rid of it with CBT, group, exercise, diet, work, socializing, meds... whatever.
Anxiety is shit too but I down about 12 hydroxyzine a day.
Wow, interesting. I comment around the internet as anonymously as possible on posts by people asking for help with their depression. Or people posting without knowing that they can ask for help. I've even posted a few times here on HN. My list of steps for immediate mitigation of the symptoms are almost exactly his steps:
1) Throw your clothes in the laundry.
2) Go for a short run.
3) Take a shower.
4) Put on clean clothes and eat a healthy meal.
5) (Which is implied in Wil's post but something I always say explicitly): Make an appointment with your doctor, or any doctor that will point you to the right doctor.
The equation of power is shifting from “Money and willingness to do Evil” to “Persuasiveness and reach,” according to Scott Adams. So while previously cries for help like this meant nothing and were an invitation to private torment, now they can work for this author with this audience. I’m extensively documenting my plight into what looks like a homeless end game, going on for 5mo now, and I am pretty sure most depression symptoms/feelings are actually disappointment/shock/dejection inflicted by those who help was sought from. Where are those friends and mentors? Theirs probably taught them to be heartless by example, people pass on their injuries. I’m not MRM but I can’t say there aren’t valid points like male disposability. Thankfully I am able to detach from my emotions and go about my days in joyful solitude but I’d rather just move on and not be put into boxes based on the past; interesting how many comedians are child abuse survivors. My view of humans as savage with a capacity for empathy emerged, as opposed to the opposite I’d felt in my years as a beloved winner/good friend/etc with an envied life. “Comedy is truth and pain,” indeed. I am now ostracized for looking conservative in SF, ex-BF even questioned if I am racist while wearing a shiny Fuck Trump shirt to my house. Silver lining is I am now much more able to feel the ostracization my younger brother felt in his short life, a tearful “nobody believes me” is burned into my memory from one conversation with him as kids. Kudos to OP for finding a platform, but this level of emoting still sends most people straight into “needs help not associating whisper whisper” mode. Even guys you feel are sensitive and who you have helped aren’t there, in fact they are the first to start picking up social capital you’re losing. As an outside observer of my own plight I can laugh along with the people who’ve received my communications asking for help, and predict their power moves, knowing one day perhaps our roles will be reversed and I can bend their minds with kindnesss. Hope things keep going for OP but we’re nowhere near acceptance of men without a platform having feelings and tears not made out of money. We create our own reality and too many people are scared to step out of the box and try stuff like this, in any case, and I hope it’s beneficial.
Edit: your previous comment also broke the guidelines badly. We ban accounts that do that, so if you'd read the rules and use this site as intended from now on, we'd appreciate it.
someone presented a list of questions, many of them provocative and probably fallacies. You posted a regular ad hominem and and insult. ```you're a real piece of work``` will never be constructive
If anything, as many sociologists have noted, having a mental illness is almost fashionable today. It is not a stigma by any means.
Ever since right after WWII, when housewives seeing a psychoanalyst become so popular, the ability to claim a diagnosis and then talk about all the treatment you do has been something of a social signal.
Having Chronic Depression is not a problem that is solved by increasing “acceptance”. Perhaps it just genuinely reflects the state of our world, or maybe simply the tragedy of what it means to be human, to suffer from original sin.
I do not doubt Mr. Wheaton’s illness or pain. But his focus on “acceptance” as the ultimate end is frustrating.
I don't enjoy seeing comments dismissing the stigma of mental illness. I have seen friends in industry targeted and pushed out after disclosing mental illnesses, and the simple fact that awareness campaigns exist and you happen to see them doesn't mean that stigma doesn't exist.
Awareness campaigns are a response to stigma and a recognition of the damage it does. Mistaking their presence for the stigma being removed is an error of familiarity and attention (you notice the awareness campaign more than you notice the stigma).
Lastly, consider that the point of the awareness campaign is to lessen unnecessary suffering, not to cure Chronic Depression, so to dismiss it as failing at a criterion that was never the intention behind it seems odd.
The acceptance of mental health issues can manifest itself in many ways. There is much more to it than just discussing anonymously online or going to see a psychiatrist.
Acceptance means I can tell interviewers honestly that the gap in my resume is because I was dealing with undiagnosed mental health issues and have that not be any worse than "I saved up money and wanted to travel and enjoy myself."
Acceptance means I can talk honestly with my friends and family about my lack of self worth and still believe they'll care about me.
Chronic depression certainly isn't 'solved by increasing acceptance'. But it does lower the barrier to seeking treatment and addressing the root causes.
In some social circles bragging about your psychiatrist/analyst/psychologist/etc carries status just as much as any other service provider - doctors of any kind, brand of car (and dealer), where your kids go to school, where you get your hair done, etc.
Throughout my life when I've told someone I have depression it's been remarkable just how many times people have responded (almost enthusiastically) with "so do I!". Anecdotally many people I know have been given a prescription for a "general-practitioner-picks-an-SSRI" at some point in their life. They then believe they have/had depression because they take/took an anti-depressant medication.
Unfortunately for me when I describe my feelings and experiences in every case (so far) the other person with depression responds with something along the lines of "Wow, that's not nearly the same thing. I guess I didn't really have depression. I'm sorry." In virtually all of these anecdotal cases I believe them to be right. Depending on how much I probe it's often pretty easy to discover they were sad because they should have been - death of a loved one, negative changes in living conditions, etc. From a diagnostic standpoint this has been very controversial:
More than likely they (and many people diagnosed with "depression" and given anti-depressants) don't have depression. They have a general practitioner with 2300 patients who can spend 12 minutes with each of them once a year. If someone comes in and complains/mentions/hints at a few key words for which there is a low cost, relatively low side effect profile drug, the standard approach for these physicians is to prescribe $DRUG and shuffle on to the next patient. At least 80% of anti-depressant medications are not prescribed by psychiatrists to people that don't have a diagnosis of depression:
Severe mental illness (of any kind) to the point of hospitalization absolutely carries stigma. In 2018 it's still often referred to as the "loony bin", "nut house", etc.
Here's an interesting experiment - reference a hospital stay to a group of people for a physical ailment. Then, replace "I had back surgery" with "I was suicidal" and witness the range of reactions, awkwardness, judgment, etc for the latter. Show someone razor marks from self-mutilation or a suicide attempt the way you might show off any other scar (from injury, surgery, etc). I assure you, in the vast majority of cases, you will get a different reaction. That's stigma.
I should also add that, similar to my anecdotal experiences above, various stays in various mental hospitals has shown me depression and mental illness that can't possibly be described as other than "something out of a movie". Entire units of patients with various mental illnesses to the point of being completely non-verbal and unable to function, catatonic, etc. Patients with self-mutilation marks covering their bodies to the point where they were cutting on top of existing scars. Group sessions with patients that describe horrors and experiences in their lives that Hollywood couldn't come up with. There are no upper or lower ranges to what people can experience, it's always only relative to the individual and empathy can only take you so far without having experienced something yourself.
I'm going to say something that probably get me banned from this SJW cesspool that HN have become: his depression is a sign of his gut telling him he is not a real man. He is a soy boy, so obsessed with looking like he is not a sexist/racist/homophobe that he cant appreciate anything else in life and blame others for not accepting him. He just need to man up.
More nuanced take: men are finally acting like women have told them to act for decades: talk about your feelings, open up, be in touch with your inner self... not realizing that only works for women because women's feelings matter and verbalizing them often enough will cause others to take action sooner or later. The reason men had the "irritating" habit of offering solutions is because it was inconceivable to most that you'd complain and expect that to actually accomplish anything.
It's like an attractive person telling the ugly that they just need to approach the world with a more positive attitude and good things will come in return. No honey, that's only because they want to have sex with you. Other people don't get shit for free.
As Warren Farrel said: men's facade of strength is their weakness, women's facade of weakness is their strength. When a man displays weakness, he forfeits his right to get help.
Two generations now have been utterly miseducated on gender by a feminized education system that treated masculinity as a condition to be medicated away and passive femininity as the role model, not realizing boys need adversity in their youth to prepare them for the complete heartlessness they'll receive as adults.
"But I love my husband!" Yes, until the marriage is over, after which he'll be devastated and pining for years, while you'll discard him like an old pair of shoes, still getting alimony, the house and the kids.
It helped me frame what depression the disease is compared to our broad usage of the word in everyday contexts. In particular it describes both the biology and psychology of depression.