Hacker News new | past | comments | ask | show | jobs | submit login

I love seeing this. I worked in the university computing department in college and this sort of thing wasn't an uncommon sight under the desks. People also had all manner of exotic keyboards.

The most elite setup, as I recall, was the Kinesis Advantage combined with pedals. The keys on the Kinesis are recessed in these sort of cups that your fingers rest above. The idea is that this reduces the distance that your fingers travel moving between rows. I could never get the hang of typing on one of them, but people swore by them. Adding the pedals for shift/ctrl/esc was supposed to further reduce the need to stretch your fingers and get them into awkward positions. People also swore it made them faster and of course it looked and sounded super cool.




I'm a longtime Kinesis user and I had the pedals about 15 years back but I never made much use of them.

I don't know if the Kinesis reduces the finger movement between rows, but your hands definitely sit in a much more relaxed way. The thumb has quite a bit more responsibility too and you don't do any stretch moves like using the pinky for the twiddle or a lot of control pressing. Love the keyboards.

As for the pedals, they are programmable and the general thinking was control/option/alt type configurations for them. I just never got in to heal-toe typing, the pedals got dusty and I never really used them much. Had I actually had CT or something, I think I might have been more motivated to make use of them.


The kinesis pedals require the foot to move which is requires a lot of energy which produces a lag of about 1 second between you wanting to press a key and pressing it with your foot. This lag turned me off pedals, but in theory it sounds great.


Indeed, a pedal sounds tiresome, unless the switch pressure could be tuned so that the foot could be relaxed and require only a small pressure to activate the switch(es).


The trouble is tuning it so that you don't need to actively hold your foot to prevent it actuating, and also having enough feedback on actuation.

I felt that some kind of wireless, in-shoe, toe-activated device might be the best option. But that's not really very practical!


Probably not, the toes really aren't built for fine motor action the way the fingers are. You would probably get RSI pretty quickly. You'd want to stick to motions that are more typical, such as stepping the foot.


That makes me think of motorcycle foot levers, where the back of your foot is supported by and pivots around a peg, allowing you to comfortable and quickly push the lever down.


hm. Yes, and with a pretty significant (by keyboard button standards) amount of pressure required.

Actually, in a situation where I can't require significant force, the 'upshift' almost seems like it would be more comfortable.


As a motorcycle rider, I'd prefer upshifting all day to downshifting all day.


What if we mount a foot switch upside down above our toes so we just flip our feet up and hit the switch? + sticky keys on the foot switch modifiers


The answer is a keyboard for your toes


I've been eyeballing a Kinesis for a while, but am curious to know what kind of mouse or trackpad you use alongside it — especially if it's something particularly ergonomic, a vertical mouse, etc. I remember seeing someone mount a Magic Trackpad on the blank spot in the middle of the keyboard but am curious what normal mouse usage looks like with one.


I can completely replace my mouse with the keyboard so I never even have to take my hands off the keys.

I use karabiner on 2 versions older of macOS, which allows you to use a special keyboard way to control the mouse... You hold the D-key then use other letter keys to move the mouse up,down, left, right, click, scroll up, scroll down etc... Works so much better than you'd expect. It literally allows me to do everything including screensnap selections, making keypoints without mouse etc.

Because karabiner doesn't work on latest macos, I've been busy writing my own replacement from scratch.

I did also initially start by mounting a trackpad in the middle of the kinesis - but ultimately this isn't perfect. My mouse keys setup simply blows everything away, even compared to just using a regular trackpad for most things, since you never take your hand off the keyboard, and can get about 70 percent as fast using the keyboard as mouse as using a real trackpad.


Could you possibly share your project? That sounds very intriguing. I have been trying to eliminate the mouse but have been unsuccessful.


My own code works almost as well as Karabiner.

My code is in such a disorganized state, I have never coded MAC stuff before, this was my first try, creating a test project scaffold with xcode. I mixed old school C-code with objective C because I don't know objective C ;->

Finally I manually injected my compiled binary into another app's package structure, just to make it work. You have to grant it accessibility permissions in preferences to work!

For now I have downgraded my MacOS-X and gone back onto Karabiner, because I literally refuse to work with computers without this awesome thing.

It takes a bit of time to get fast and accurate, but eventually it is all just muscle memory moving a pointer around on the screen. Some stuff with keyboard-mouse is even better than normal mouse(trackpad). But overall I am so happy with it that I do video editing and all other document editing with it, and wouldn't dream of going back to my trackpad or mouse. (I also get RSI pains from using pointing devices, but as I say, it is devine to never lift your hands OFF your Kinesis Advantage keyboard).

I suspect part of what makes this really great is using it on the Kinesis. When I work on the train on my MBP I still use mouse-keys, but sometimes use the trackpad intermittently.

I would really recommend trying Karabiner if you have an older mac, otherwise I could email you a binary.

I will probably clean up the project, and use fancier tecniques like direct hardware access from user-space instead of the eventtapper, and copy some tricks from Karabiner-elements.

Eventually I will create a github and maybe a project site ;-> If by the time I am somehow forced to upgrade MacOS and there still isn't a good solution out there, I will certainly make mine work, otherwise I am screwed!


I never used Karabiner’s mouse movements, but I did love its sticky keys. Karabiner Elements finally supports them again on new versions of macOS. Have you tried it to see if the mouse movements work?


Last I looked Karabiner-ELEMENTS did not have this mouse-key feature. Karabiner mouse-keys really works amazingly well, so well in fact that I was willing to downgrade both my MAC's macos to be able to keep using it until my own fully replaces it !


I've used a Kinesis for years and have found my favorite 'mouse' pairing to be a Kensington Slimblade. Switching to the trackball made a big difference for my RSI and it really sits pretty nicely next to the keyboard to let you switch to it with a small movement of your arm so my wrist always stays in a nice neutral position.


Same combination here. I tried many mice before settling on the Slimblade trackball.

Since this is a vim-inspired thread: among other mappings, I swap Escape with Delete, and swap ↓ with ↑ so they line up with J and K.


With delete seems exotic, doesn’t it get confusing?

I use caps-lock for escape. It’s really nice but whenever I use a coworkers computer I find myself suddenly writing with caps-lock on even though I’m the only vi-user at the office.


This is on a Kinesis keyboard where there is a delete key right under the left thumb. I re-mapped it to Alt, but it is a very handy spot to remap to something as delete just isn't that useful.


I have a vertical mouse, but install vim keybindings in every program I use with any frequency. I don't use the mouse often.


What do you use for vim bindings in a browser?


https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/vimium/dbepggeogba...

And I hear good things about Vimperator on Firefox.


Just to mention other options, in Firefox I use Vimium and on Safari Vimmy.


A totally different direction from the Kinesis, but this has kept me happy for the past 5 years: http://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/96U1114

There are trackball buttons on the top of the keyboard. When using it, my right hand curls around the corner and my thumb is over the trackball. I have the 2nd mouse button set to scroll-lock, and scrolling up and down web pages and through terminal histories never felt better.


I have been using an Anker vertical mouse for about a year now. It's far from feature rich, but the build quality is impressive for a $20 mouse, and it's very comfortable. AAA battery life is good-great (it's not rechargable). I have medium-large hands for a male, and it sits in my hand great. As you get used to it, you do have to be careful you don't send it sailing across your desk when you go to reach for it!

http://a.co/dw6aVMO


I tried using one of these Evoluent ones which has a pretty high price tag (I think?) http://a.co/e8u6qen

Ended up going back to the trusty $20 Anker cause it feels more comfortable on my hand/forearm. Go figure.


I use a CST L-Trac (trackball) on the left side of my Kinesis Advantage. I'm right handed, but my right hand also had worse problems than my left. I figured if I was going to switch to using my left hand for pointing device, I might as well try switching to a trackball as well.

I'd actually started with a Kensington Expert Mouse (also a trackball, despite the name). I switched to the CST because it has a higher resolution. The one thing I didn't like about the CST was the placement of the middle button, but the CST is easily hackable so I added a "sidecar" with a button for my thumb, and it works really well.

Here's a photo of my setup:

http://i.imgur.com/PYZpWyr.jpg


I seem to remember that one of my buddies who had the Kinesis used a vertical trackball mouse. It was definitely a trackball and the ball was very large, maybe a little larger than a golf ball. I can't seem to find anything about vertical trackballs Googling it though.


Everyone I've seen with a Kinesis who actually had a mouse had one of these.

They're also fantastic once you're used to them. I frequently consider switching to trackball, but my favorite option is still the Trackpoint. IBM/Lenovo really screwed the pooch there though.


This was always my question too. What’s the point of a 300$ keyboard that minimizes movement when you have to move your entire hand every time you you need a mouse?

Completely avoiding the mouse isn’t an option for some workflows.

I wish there were more keyboards with IBM-style trackpoints.


> What’s the point of a 300$ keyboard that minimizes movement when you have to move your entire hand every time you you need a mouse?

Because I rarely use the mouse (trackball in my case), and if I type on a 'regular' keyboard for any extended period of time I will experience discomfort; whereas on the Kinesis Advantage I don't experience any discomfort.

300$ seems like a steal to me!

(Not that I paid. My company did.)


What’s the point of a 300$ keyboard that minimizes movement when you have to move your entire hand every time you you need a mouse?

The point is to reduce strain and fatigue of the fingers and wrists, not to reduce movement for the sake of reducing movement.

Mouse ergonomics is a completely separate can of worms.


I was talking about reducing strain and fatigue. Moving your whole hand over the mouse over and over again introduces quite a lot of fatigue. This is why the keyboard and mouse aren’t separate problems.

A keyboard that doesn’t have an integrated mouse solves only part of the problem. That’s why I like having a trackpoint for small mouse movements.


The Advantage in my case helped reduce the strain of the positioning of the hands. When I have to travel and switch back to the MBP's keyboard, the position of my hands on the keyboard definitely causes discomfort if I have to type for more than a few hours a day.

I don't mind having to switch to the mouse. It gives me time to take both hands of my keyboard and change their positions even if for a little bit.


I've been meaning to hack a trackpoint into my Kinesis. It's been done before, mounted where you can control with the thumb so you don't need to move your hand at all.


Are there trackpoint kits? Or do people disassemble old keyboards?


Only seen it done with ones removed from old keyboards. On at least some (including the IBM SpaceSaver IIs that I have), it's on a separate little board. I believe the outputs are pretty simple to decode.


I miss using a macbook keyboard for exactly this -- could easily use the trackpad with my thumb with little hand movement. My ideal keyboard would be something similar to the current microsoft surface natural keyboard with a macbook trackpad below it.


Ultimate Hacking Ketboard willnhave trackball and trackpoint modules.


Right. There’s also tex yoda 2. Both of these cost about as much as the kinesis, but they don’t seem as well designed.

The ideal for me would be a two-in-one. An ergonomic, well designed keyboard like the kinesis, with the addition of a trackpoint to avoid lifting a hands for small mouse movements.


The TeX Yoda has a terrible built in mouse. Highly recommend steering clear. I've been a thinkpad guy for the past 15 years or so, and I jumped on the opportunity to buy one when it came out. The sensitivity on the trackpoint has a really weird velocity curve and I never managed to get it to feel even close to right on any platform.

Building keyboards has been a hobby for a minute, I've settled on an HHKB that I've gutted and replaced the controller with a Teensy 2 so I can program all my mouse keys and shortcuts in hardware, therefore avoiding the inevitable discussion on who's mappings to use when pairing. You can often find good offerings for sale/trade on reddit/r/mechmarket.


Been a user of a Microsoft Natural, then switched to a Kinesis Freestyle, and now I've migrated to an ergodox.

They are not curved like the Kinesis Advantage are, but I have really long arms and the ability to move both keyboard parts around is so good on my elbows and wrists.

As per mouse, I have been looking at trackballs, but I was kinda scared to get one so far. Having large hands, I previously used a Razer Mad Cat, because I could adjust the mouse to a size so I don't have to grab inwards, and I could just hold it without effort. That thing recently broke, and I changed to a slightly angled, equally large trust mouse.


I also picked the Ergodox over the Kinesis, though I only tried the Kinesis for a day.

I had spent 10+ years working nomad style on a Thinkpad, and when I got a desk I got one of those USB Thinkpad keyboards with the trackpoint in it. Turns out if you zap them with static 2-3 times a day for a couple years, they'll eventually stop working... One day it just up and died, and a co-worker had the Advantage and Ergodox Ez and I'd been meaning to try them.

I had switched to a tiling window manager a few years before that, i3, so I could do a lot of the navigation without using the mouse. I've at times toyed with the idea of putting a trackpoint in the Ergodox, and if they made one I'd probably buy it, but I'm pretty happy with my current setup.

For most navigation I use my keyboard. Since I have 3 monitors, using the mouse is not a great experience anyway. I mostly use the mouse for web browsers (never really been happy with the mouseless navigation experience there).

Love the Ergodox Ez. I've also got an Ergodox Infinity with Cherry Brown, I kind of prefer those keys, but I like the Ez's tenting kit. I also picked up an Ez with Gaetron Blue, which is honestly too loud for my work environment and doesn't feel enough better to be worth it. My normal keyboard is Ez with Gaetron Brown. I just noticed they have a new Ez that has switches you can remove and replace (without a soldering iron), and they have switched to Cherry. A good move, IMHO.


I have a kinesis advantage and an ergodox. It might just be my preference but the advantage is worlds better. It’s just so much more comfortable. I’d highly recommend trying one.


I tried a vertical mouse, but settled on a Kensington Orbit Trackball.

Works well. With my Kinesis Advantage forget pair programming; except with those in the office I have converted to the Kinesis Advantage of course!


I used a mighty mouse with it as the last mouse. I've been using a magic trackpad lately. Definitely not the most ergonomic option but I like the hand gestures.

Took maybe 3 days to get used to the movement between them mouse and the keyboard. I think it would be more uncomfortable to have one in the middle space in the keyboard, your hands sort of naturally fall away to the side but they have to reach in to the middle space.


I have a Kinesis and have a trackball to the right and a magic trackpad to the left.

I tried velcroing the trackpad to the middle, but the angle is weird. I like it better to the left.


I use a Logitech Cordless Optical TrackMan [1] alongside my Kinesis Advantage.

[1] https://www.amazon.ca/Logitech-Cordless-Trackman-Discontinue...


I stuck a Cirque touchpad in the middle of the keyboard. I use that mainly for window switching with focus following cursor in I3. It's not that great for pointing, so I usually have a regular mouse on the side for web browsing.


I have been using an evoluent with my kinesis for the last 10 years. Great ergonomic setup.


Check out the Dactyl. You can get one 3D printed for about the same cost as a Kinesis.


I use my Kinesis Advantage keyboard with an Apple Magic Trackpad 2 next to it, and it works perfectly! I had some issues with RSI a couple years ago, and this keyboard has helped me get over it.


I invested last year in two Elecom left handed trackballs (find them on Amazon). One at work and one at home.


Once you mastered the Kinesis Advantage you don't want to go back. Your hands move way less on the Kinesis than on a normal keyboard. Maybe this is also the reason why I always found the use of ESC in vim an odd choice, i.e. you have to move your hand to reach the ESC key. Moreover, the Kinesis has the arrow keys below the "c" "v" "m" "," keys so you can navigate without moving your hands, this is similar to vim but without the annoying mode switches.


> without the annoying mode switches.

Hmm, I've used Vi and other editors long enough that I find it annoying that most editors enter text when in normal mode.


The choice of escape in Vi was because it was originally developed for a keyboard like this terminal.

https://vintagecomputer.ca/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/LSI-AD...

Where escape is in a similar place to tab on PC keyboards. Also note the arrows on the home row.

Most dedicated vim users will move to using C-[ probably with caps lock mapped to Ctrl.

Other alternatives are map caps lock to escape or even have caps lock as escape when pressed and ctrl when held.


Ctrl-[ instead of Esc has probably saved my life.


My dream keyboard would be a Kinesis advantage with some significant modifications to make it good for taking it on the go, since I travel a bunch and work from public places. In order of importance:

1. more compact. No extra surface, instead just have separate wells connected either by a wire like the Kinesis Freestyle, or fully wirelessly ideally. Kinda like the ErgoDox keyboard.

2. lightweight. Don’t want to be carrying a brick in my backpack. I’m totally fine with using low travel keys like how a MacBook or any decent chiclet keyboards feels, I mostly just want the layout.

3. wireless. Bluetooth with ability to switch multiple inputs like the Logitech K811 would be incredible.

If anyone knows how someone would start to hack something like this together, please tell me! I have never done hardware but I would love to mess around with something like this as a project.


tons of small keyboards inspired by kinesis has been developed. Iris, Dactyl, Split Plancks, and more. Depends on what you really need from the Kinesis. Is it the thumb buttons? The cups? The split layout? There are several other designs that are more compact, but I don't really remember the specifics. /r/mechanicalkeyboards is a good place to watch for the designs (yes, among all the expensive conventional keyboards there)


For me the most important are split layout and portability. The cups and thumb layouts are just icing on the cake, tenting on a flat layout would be sufficient too.

Iris and dactyl look like the sort of things I’m thinking, though I’d probably want to find a way to either have f keys or configure some of those thumb keys to hit certain common f keys, I assume that’s doable though! Thanks for the resources, just mentioning names and where to look really helps :)


I have the Diverge and it's very nice.


of course, you can make it whatever you want! it's fully programmable. just hit me up if you need anything!


- Get different kinds of keyswitches (the kinds used in DIY keyboards) and examine how they click into place etc

- Start playing with 3D modeling software

- Figure out what the base/frame should look/work like and have that professionally made somewhere (ie a cheap CNC place)

- Invest in a good 3D printer (I hear the cheap kit/"project" ones are terrible) or find one you can rent/borrow, and 3D print attachments to the base for iteration purposes

I realize this approach describes several months of work but is probably a "99.9% solution" - as in it'll be likely to (viably) get you the absolute closest to exactly what you're looking for.


There was a geekhack post on this sort of general idea, but it hasn't seen activity for a while now: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=84985.0

Looks stunning to me. The rather underrated Cherry ML switches strike the balance of low travel and good feel for me. Maybe one day someone will get sufficiently inspired to make such a thing.


I used a Kinesis when I worked at Microsoft, which I credit for heading off impending RSI. It took about a week to get back up to speed, and then it was great. I had a pedal connected to the shift key because of all the LONG_CAPITALIZED_C_CONSTANTS in Microsoft code.


I type enough capitalized constants (and plain-text abbreviations) nowadays that I actually un-remapped Caps Lock and put it back in its default spot.

I imagine some frustrated IBM programmers in the late 80s saying "fuck it, I'm just putting caps lock where Control used to be."


I've got one of the thumb keys on the left of the Kinesis mapped to shift; never quite got used to it though and I'm always mistyping when holding it.


Yes, that's interesting recollection, now that I think of it the late 90s seems like a period of considerable experimentation with user input, e.g. the Microsoft Natural keyboards were somewhat popular, various trackball mice even for desktops, 2/3 button mice with various buttons on the side, trackwheels (lots more combinations that these days), wacom tablets, etc. I guess this stuff is still available, but much more niche now.

I wonder what happened? Maybe since computers are cheaper, more ubiquitous and people might use several (home, work, laptop), it's much less practical to use an exotic setup these days?


Even just finding a mouse with extra buttons is difficult nowadays.

My Logitech with side buttons finally wore out, and the only symmetrical standard mouse with five buttons was a Razer gaming mouse. I bought it, but I feel a bit silly with it on my desk at work.


You should see the look on people's faces when they realize my SteelSeries Sensei has a small LCD on the bottom - https://steelseries.com/gaming-mice/sensei

Bought it because you can do simple macros for buttons which are stored on-device. Also allows for mode switching with rotating profiles that are differentiated by LED color.

If you're on a budget and don't care about on-device macros or looks then there are branded variants, like the Guild Wars 2 one when I initially tried it out and now there's a CoD one.

The downside is that the branding paint job wears out with use. Especially problematic on the white GW2 one I had (yellowing under fingers). Don't try to clean it with IPA (rubbing) alcohol though, it dissolves the matte sides and the paint job (learned from experience). https://www.amazon.com/SteelSeries-Call-Black-Gaming-Mouse/d...


I switched from Logitech to Roccata few years ago. The Type mouse has worked pretty well for me, with 14 programmable buttons

https://www.roccat.org/en-US/Products/Gaming-Mice/Tyon/


I think the keyword they use is ambidextrous. E.g. Zowie makes some decent ones that look fairly normal.


Gaming mouse, razer naga and naga hex have plenty of extra buttons. 15 and 6 respectively.


Don't forget FingerWorks, which made the first consumer, multitouch track pad. Sadly, Apple bought them and they disappeared from the PC market.


I started feeling a slight discomfort in my wrists a few months in to my first job. My manager suggested that I expense a new keyboard, recommending the kinesis advantage.

It took me a good 2 weeks to become proficient on it, but that was four and a half years ago and I haven't felt any RSI symptoms at all. I think I'm now faster on it than my old keyboards, mostly due to the thumb clusters. I recommend it to everyone who asks about it.




Guidelines | FAQ | Lists | API | Security | Legal | Apply to YC | Contact

Search: