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Nebraska's civil forfeiture reform (journalstar.com)
153 points by mrb on May 18, 2016 | hide | past | favorite | 54 comments



> Still, the attorney general's office says the bill "contains more than minor errors."

> For example, if a person suspected of drug trafficking is stopped by local law enforcement on Interstate 80 en route to another state, it's possible Nebraska laws would provide no avenue to prosecute that person and therefore no way to permanently seize the cash, Shasserre said.

"You can't take their money if you don't have enough evidence to prosecute" is a feature, not a bug.


The response of the bill's sponsors is even more pithy:

> Garrett said the goal is first and foremost to protect people's due process rights.

> "You can what-if things to death," he said. "If they don't have a case — too bad, so sad."


depends on your perspective...

At the risk of defending a complete moron (the AG), he is likely an elected official who the people of the state want to do these things and the law is preventing him from doing the will of the people.

(analysis of a point of view, not a validation of it)


For yet another perspective, the measure in question was put in place by lawmakers who are elected to do the will of the people. If this law is being passed then we can infer that the will of the people is not, in fact, to have their property stolen by the state without due process.


The analysis is likely correct. But the will of the people is not always right and sometimes law is at its best when it protects you from the will of the people. This may be just so, in which case I applaud the insight and, perhaps, bravery of the legislature for doing the right thing.


hang on, what? So in the USA the police can just take your personal possessions without providing any cause or reason?

That doesn't sound like Freedom! to me, that sounds like a police state...


It is. And it's explicitly forbidden by our Constitution.

Efforts to pretend otherwise, but only for suspected drug dealers, lost that qualifier a decade or so ago when fiscal conservatives started to doom state governments to persistent budget shortfalls. Police departments lacking funding found themselves a status as highwaymen that the federal government (since Reagan) would tolerate, robbing out-of-state vehicles under cover of federal law and judicial precedent.

These people swear an oath to uphold the Constitution. There is no wiggle room on this subject in the Bill of Rights for people to have their possessions stripped from their person absent a criminal conviction. Practitioners of 'civil asset forfeiture' are traitors to that oath and to their country, in addition to being guilty of the common crime of armed robbery.

Why hasn't it been changed yet?

* It's rare. This is not an everyday thing.

* It often targets people on long-haul car journeys through what wealthy people (the sort who can afford lawyers) term 'the flyover states'. Most people do not want to battle this in court at least a days' drive from their home, on disadvantaged terms with a lawyer who will cost more than the goods in question.

* Most wealthy people (the sort who can afford lawyers) no longer carry large amounts of cash.

* State & local police departments have become reliant on it. Law enforcement agencies are extremely averse to going up against each other. Politicians with the power to shape law respond to the opinion of the people in the place they live and to local campaign donations by wealthy people, not to out-of-state victims.


"It's rare".

Civil asset forfeitures totaled $2.5 Billion in 2010 [1] , or approximately $8 per citizen of the country. Keep in mind that if the police hand isn't in your pocket, it's in someone else's.

This is bullshit and needs to stop. It's leading to bad places and actually makes me fear and disrespect the police, which is totally inverted from police's purpose!

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_forfeiture_in_the_United...


This is a good explanation of things, but scapegoating "fiscal conservatives" for reducing budgets seems disingenuous, and deflects blame from those responsible (IE, the police, DAs, judges, and legislators who allow this travesty to continue). Choosing to spend less on a government function cannot be allowed the impression of excusing this behavior.


Fiscal conservatives are what brought the practice back in the context of the drug war, and their budget constraints are a large part of what expanded the practice beyond the drug war and into wink-wink-I-smell-pot-in-this-BMW territory. They're not the only guilty ones - Democrats generally went along with it, like the rest of the drug war, for fear of being painted as weak on crime, but they're not the architects. The phenomenon of state governments which perpetually run deficits, cutting more every year, is not their vice.

" I don't want to abolish government. I simply want to reduce it to the size where I can drag it into the bathroom and drown it in the bathtub. "

- Grover Norquist, possessor of a signed loyalty oath from much of the Republican Party towards the goal of ritual opposition to new taxes

" It's now possible for a drug dealer to serve time in a forfeiture-financed prison after being arrested by agents driving a forfeiture-provided automobile while working in a forfeiture-funded sting operation. "

— Reagan attorney general Richard Thornburgh in 1989.

This is implicitly corrupting and, again, explicitly unconstitutional. The historical civil forfeiture was used in British Naval law to seize assets of overseas fugitives before charging them; It was one of the reasons the US rebelled. Stealing cash from one's pocket because one is carrying cash and this is inherently suspicious, without charges when given every opportunity to arrest, has never been historically acceptable.


Plus the cases in many states are framed in such a way that the cash itself is the defendant and the person it was taken from has no standing in the case. They make it essentially procedurally impossible to contest the seizure.


"The cases in many states are framed in such a way that the neck itself is the defendant and the person using it to connect their head to their body has no standing in the case. This makes it procedurally impossibly to contest the beheading."

You describe a farce that the current generation of police, legislators, district attorneys, and judges have decided to entertain because they grew too friendly & were never invested in the principles they claim to serve. It is not a victimless show they are putting on.

I mean, the words in your statement make some sense in that each one is related to the next concept in the sentence, but together they are a satire of Constitutional and common law.


surely this introduces a precedent for defence lawyers too though? "My client did not buy the drugs. My client's money bought the drugs. If my client has no standing in civil forfeiture then he also has no case to answer in criminal proceedings"


The forfeiture is completely separate from any criminal investigation; in fact, it's possible for a forfeiture to occur in the complete absence of any criminal charges.


And that makes this so criminal. It's not just injustice, it is actual highway robbery. If states can't fix this, the federal government should. Allowing state officials to prey on out-of-state travellers sounds like exactly the kind of thing the federal government should prevent.


Not only they can take they are under no obligation to even pursue charges. You have to prove your innocence to get your stuff back.

Note: Police get to divide this loot among themselves (as their own private property) it does not even go to government coffers.


So if I'm a copper and I see someone with a nice shiny laptop I want, I can just stop them and take their laptop for my own?

that's insane! Why aren't Americans rioting in the streets about this?


The police are careful to prioritise nonwhite people for looting, and occasionally they do riot about their treatment by police. The fact that US police can shoot people dead without an external legal investigation is also riot material.


Because the government always trots out drugs and terrorism as the defense. Americans hate drugs and terrorists. Therefore we need to stop their funding!

Fortunately this family of stories are getting more ink and video. John Oliver did a show on it. Local stories popup about small time business owner trying to buy a truck getting screwed.

So we are seeing two things America likes hitting heads: fighting terror and small businesses getting screwed.

https://youtu.be/3kEpZWGgJks


Forget your shiny laptop. Imagine you own a hotel. Copper can catch some guy hanging out in your lobby claiming he might have drugs then take your motel and delivery van.

Americans don't riot because they think "drug person lost his motel? who cares?".



Holy crap, I thought the poster had made that story about the motel up.

The best part is, there is zero penalty for trying to take an entire hotel! It's like Grand Theft Auto in reverse with god mode on.


Kid has $40 worth of heroin in in his bedroom, parents' housed seized for being tied to a drug crime.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/03/us/philadelphia-drug-bust-hous...


If you thought I made it up check this story:

A guy gets caught on street selling marijuana worth $10 he has a teen friend with him at that time. Cops arrest him (the friend) and then visit his home which happens to be owned by his own Grandparents who live with another 9 young grand-children in that home. Cops take the house and make the grandparents pay a rent to continue in their own home. Grandparents are poor and can't pay the rent hence they settle for the plea bargain where they basically give the home to cops in return of freedom of their grandchild and forgiving the rent money for one month they stayed in it.


People may make stories up, but there is often an actual occurrence that mirrors the story, even if the story and the occurrence are unrelated.

In other words, even if you can demonstrate that a particular story is made up, it doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. It doesn't even mean that it doesn't happen often.


Carmel is a charming women. I think there is a need for more people like her in positions of almost total power. How can "hands off leadership" and "overzealousness" go wrong.


I think Dark Triad is at work. You cant be a CIA agent unless you are good at lying but then you cant be expected to uphold law and be accountable for the exact same reason.

A DA who has compassion for people, who tries to be nice and keep the community safe without being overzealous is likely to lose to someone who keep trash talking criminals, puts lot of people behind bars etc.

"Mr. X is a child abuser, should he be sent to jail? " How can anyone answer NO to that question but in reality Mr. X married a girl of 17 years old and could have had a very happy married life.


>Why aren't Americans rioting in the streets about this?

It isn't something that your average middle class American has to worry about too often. Cops mostly target the poor and people of color so the issues around civil forfeiture are largely unknown outside those who have experienced abuse of civil forfeiture.

Just like how many white Americans think racism is a solved problem since they don't experience it personally.


Not exactly, but it's pretty bad.

Here's the thing. There are two kinds of legal systems in the US, the civil system and the criminal justice system. In criminal justice there are tons and tons of protections for the rights of individuals, right to legal counsel, right to face your accusers, right of a jury trial, presumption of innocence, and very importantly the requirement that a trial find you guilty "beyond reasonable doubt" in order to mete out a sentence. In civil law a lot of that doesn't exist (the lowest rung being small claims court) and most importantly the requirement for a conviction is merely a "preponderance of the evidence" standard, meaning that it's more likely than not that the defendant committed the crime (i.e. 50 + epsilon percent chance).

The kicker is that with civil forfeiture laws the accused is not a person, no individual has to be found guilty of a criminal offense, the accused is an item, a piece of property. This neatly skirts a lot of the protections of the constitution and civil law. The basic idea is that if you pull over Jim Bob on a country road and you take ten thousand dollars off his person you don't need to put Jim Bob on trial in criminal court and convict him to take any of his stuff, instead you can put the ten thousand dollars on trial in civil court and assess whether there was a greater than even odds that it was in some way involved in a crime (typically drug dealing) and then when a judge says "sure enough, that seems likely" you take that money and you use it to pad out the operating budget of your police agency.

Seems ridiculous but it's been a major aspect of the "War on Drugs" for over 3 decades now. Consider, for example, this court case, the United States Versus $124,700 in US Currency: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._$124,700_in_U...

This sort of thing happens on a regular basis day in day out. Hundreds of millions of dollars worth of goods and cash are seized every year in the US.

And yes, it does sound like a police state. The War on Drugs has been one of the most extreme erosions of rights and liberties in the entire history of the US.


Great post, but the scale of the problem was off by an order of magnitude. The theft is measured in billions per year these days. It's hard to get an exact number since most of the data combines criminal and civil forfeiture - but even those numbers don't include all the state programs. From my reading on the topic I think it's fairly safe to say it's over the $2B/yr mark and growing.


nice explanation, thanks :)

It relies on the obvious farce of an inanimate object being able to commit a crime, though. Kinda flies in the face of "guns don't kill people..."


This is great to hear. It must spread quickly to correct one of many bugs in the 2016 version of US laws.


Call you representative. Voice your concern. Spearhead the effort in your state or find out who is.


I'm not a US citizen.


Email them anyway. Chances are they have an intern counting for/against, positive/negative, without bothering to notice the author's citizenship. Don't lie, just say "I'm against X" and leave it to them. If rich people can fund elections across state lines, across national boundaries, then poor people should at least be able to register their disapproval.


Its not going to get counted without a zip code to confirm constituency. Also, emails count the least (point system based on in-person visit, letters, phone calls, emails, in descending order of value).


You forgot "Check with big campaign contribution" :-)


I realize you're just being snarky, but for the benefit of those playing at home, only U. S. citizens can make campaign contributions.


Couldn't he just form a corporation here[0]? I hear delaware makes that easy.

[0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_United_v._FEC


I was only partially snarky. It's the way things work and even if you have something where the facts are totally on your side you should accept that the money will get things done, not the facts.


Pithy but inaccurate.


Not only accurate, empirically proven[0].

[0]https://scholar.princeton.edu/sites/default/files/mgilens/fi...


I think it's accurate and something people should learn. A lot of people (tech people like me who like facts) want political decisions to be made on their merits but in reality money plays a big role. So even if you think that all the facts are on your side you are probably still better off adding some money to the mix.


This is good news. The most fundamental corruption in society must be unscrutinized seizure by government and police.


FYI, in 2013 a reform (Senate Bill 443 [0]) was shot down in California, because LEO doesn't want their goodies taken away.

If you're a concerned Californian you might want to contact the senator who introduced it, Holly Mitchell [1]

[0] http://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-alert...

[1] http://sd30.senate.ca.gov/


Forbes requires me to disable malware protection to view their site. I found an informative link here instead:

http://dailysignal.com/2016/04/22/nebraska-abolishes-civil-f...


We've changed the URL from http://www.forbes.com/sites/instituteforjustice/2016/04/20/n... to a local newspaper report.


> http://journalstar.com/legislature/a-positive-step-forward-b...

Umm, not sure if it's just me, but this link doesn't even let me read the article without answering a survey like "Do you currently have auto insurance?"


It used to be we had to go outside, find a newspaper box, and put a quarter in it to get a paper. And it was probably just the local paper.


Yes but we didn't have to wash their dishes. Ads are one thing, invasive popover interactive surveys are another.


I love the surveys! It gives me an opportunity to muddle what Google knows about me.


Try disabling JavaScript, the page displays fine on mobile without it.


Thanks, forbes isn't fond of Ghostery.


My work blocks a lot of ad sites, completely out of my control. Forbes and Wired are two where I have to just skip the links, if I'm browsing from there.




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