> Do Apple employees not drive cars on roads (paid for by the taxpayer)?
If a mafia built roads, would that make its extortion alright?
> Of course Apple avoid taxes - anyone who can do so without fear of getting significantly punished does
Exactly. Think about that for a while there. You're basically saying that no one would pay taxes without being forced to.
Would anyone pay a mafia protection money without being forced to? That's how extortion works you know.
There you go. Governments force us to pay taxes, exactly because otherwise we wouldn't pay them, which shows how irrelevant all the services provided with extorted money are.
Are you saying the government is extorting in the name of taxes?
Taxes are important because some things ( like laying roads ) cannot be selectively implemented. You can't just ask some to pay for the road and the rest not to use it.
> I'm saying taxation is extortion, and just as immoral as when a mafia does it.
This is a ridiculous comment. I realise the social contract has broken down somewhat in recent years but if you can't see the difference between Mafia extortion and government taxation there's something wrong. Here's just one difference: we can vote for the government.
> Here's just one difference: we can vote for the government.
So what? Go ahead and tell me how and why that matters with regard to taxation itself.
Again, if a mafia let you vote for the new mafia boss, would that make extortion alright? Would it be good to be bossed around by a mafia boss you voted for? Would getting elected make it alright for him to extort you?
You do realize they're still taking your money by force, don't you? What difference does it make that you drop a piece of paper into a box once every few years?
How do you intend to have money without a central bank? Should we all swap gold bars? What if I have a different view of the value of gold/bitcoin?
Also, I'll play along if that's what you want.
> You could just build a road and then ask people to pay for using it
1. I'm going to use your road and not pay. What are you going to do about it?
2. I don't believe you have rights to the land the road is on. How do you prove you have that right?
3. I'm going to build a circular road around a village, then charge $1 trillion for anyone to cross it. Should they starve to death rather then disobey me?
4. I've just shot your best friend in the street because I didn't like the colour of their hair? What are your options?
Please feel free to explain how, in the absence of taxation or joint societal constructs like a government, you're in a good place here?
Incidentally, I've just come back from the Netherlands, where the rather excellent Rotterdam Museum of Customs had a series of quite nicely inquiring exhibits going into exactly why we pay tax and all the nice things it gives to the Netherlands. I wish my own society (the UK) felt more confident about putting forward a pro-taxation argument. Ultimately, it's a kind of social glue that's needed I think.
Also this shouldn't need pointing out, but I did answer at least one of your questions:
> You do realize they're still taking your money by force, don't you?
... with the response:
> How do you intend to have money without a central bank?
I guess I could generalise it to "plus law courts, legal system and police force," if you like.
The real problem you have is that "someone taking your money" assumes you have money in the first place, and there's no such thing as money absent a framework that provides it. Otherwise it's just bits of green paper/coloured metal/bits on a computer.
Or would you like to swap ten chickens for my sheep? No? I think I'll just shoot you and take the chickens anyway then.
And the police? Fire departments? Social security? Town planning/maintenance/social policy/etc etc etc.
Essentially the only system without tax is anarchy, and if you are bona fide advocating that - well I wish you the best of luck in your brave new world.
> You could just build a road and then ask people to pay for using it, much like you can build an iPhone and ask people to pay for one if they want it.
Or much like toll existing roads/bridges [e.g. Golden Gate Bridge, Pennsylvania Turnpike, M6 Toll, German Autobahn (as of 2016)].
If a mafia built roads, would that make its extortion alright?
> Of course Apple avoid taxes - anyone who can do so without fear of getting significantly punished does
Exactly. Think about that for a while there. You're basically saying that no one would pay taxes without being forced to.
Would anyone pay a mafia protection money without being forced to? That's how extortion works you know.
There you go. Governments force us to pay taxes, exactly because otherwise we wouldn't pay them, which shows how irrelevant all the services provided with extorted money are.