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> The first point seems just wrong.

I will modify that.

> No citations for the majority of it either.

To exactly what you need citations?


Edit: Sorry for what an opinionated mini rant this comment has become while typing it ;;

> The so called ‘rootless’ Podman seems to be advertised as being on the same level of isolation as Jails – but only if You run that Podman with properly configured and enabled SELinux/AppArmor solutions.

That ignores user namespacing, the subsequent namespacing for mounts, networks, etc. So I'm confused as to where the it-only-is-secure-with-selinux comes from.

> Then the Jails are better isolated again

How so.

- - -

> Even ‘rootless’ Podman has full access to all Linux kernel syscalls

from https://podman.io/blogs/2019/10/15/generate-seccomp-profiles...

Most container tools use a default seccomp filter which was initially written by Jesse Frazelle for Docker

- - -

> Jails have restricted use of FreeBSD kernel syscalls without any additional tools

Which ones

> You can NOT dedicate any physical interface to the ‘rootless’ Podman container

I'm confused by what you mean "physical" here.

Can also disable networking, which is mentioned for jails for some reason. So is other VPN-like options, not mentioned for Podman.

https://www.procustodibus.com/blog/2022/10/wireguard-in-podm... as an example

> firewall

https://discuss.linuxcontainers.org/t/how-does-nftables-work...

> comparing CVE counts and nothing else

Come on

- - -

This article seems like it would strongly contribute to people misunderstanding things.


I believe you have wrong view of how secure FreeBSD Jails are - definitely a lot more secure the rootless Podman for a start.

Isolation: With rootless Podman it seems to be on the same level as Jails - but only if You run Podman with SELinux or AppArmor enabled. Without SELinux/AppArmor the Jails offer better isolation. When you run Podman with SELinux/AppArmor and then you add MAC Framework (like mac_sebsd/mac_jail/mac_bsdextended/mac_portacl) the Jails are more isolated again.

Kernel Syscalls Surface: Even rootless Podman has 'full' syscall access unless blocked by seccomp (SELinux). Jails have restricted use of syscalls without any additional tools - and that can be also narrowed with MAC Framework on FreeBSD.

Firewall: You can not run firewall inside rootless Podman container. You can run entire network stack and any firewall like PF or IPFW independently from the host inside VNET Jail - which means more security.

TL;DR: FreeBSD Jails are generally more secure out-of-the-box compared to Podman containers and even more secure if you take the time to add additional layers of security.

> How battle-tested are FreeBSD Jails?

Jails are in production since 1999/2000 when they were introduced - so 25 years strong - very well battle tested.

Docker is with us since 2014 so that means about 10 years less - but we must compare to Podman ...

Rootless support for Podman first appeared late 2019 (1.6) so only less then 6 years to test.

That means Jails are the most battle tested of all of them.

Hope that helps.

Regards,

vermaden


As FreeBSD UNIX user and sysadmin for about 20 years now - FreeBSD importing some systemd(1) fork is the LAST thing I want to see in the FreeBSD land.

In other words - to make it simple - get the fuck out of my lawn with that shit.


Here is my take on that topic:

- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43594043


Since there is not native (or source code) for Minecraft Bedrock for FreeBSD you can run Bedrock Minecraft server on FreeBSD using Linux Jail - with Linux Binary Compatibility FreeBSD feature.

Details here:

- https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/minecraft-bedrock-edition...

> Can you provide proof? It feels like an empty statement.

Here:

- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43594043


Sure - lets have a discussion about differences between security of FreeBSD Jails and Linux Podman containers.

Isolation: With rootless Podman it seems to be on the same level as Jails - but only if You run Podman with SELinux or AppArmor enabled. Without SELinux/AppArmor the Jails offer better isolation. When you run Podman with SELinux/AppArmor and then you add MAC Framework (like mac_sebsd/mac_jail/mac_bsdextended/mac_portacl) the Jails are more isolated again.

Kernel Syscalls Surface: Even rootless Podman has 'full' syscall access unless blocked by seccomp (SELinux). Jails have restricted use of syscalls without any additional tools - and that can be also narrowed with MAC Framework on FreeBSD.

Firewall: You can not run firewall inside rootless Podman container. You can run entire network stack and any firewall like PF or IPFW independently from the host inside VNET Jail - which means more security.

TL;DR: FreeBSD Jails are generally more secure out-of-the-box compared to Podman containers and even more secure if you take the time to add additional layers of security.

> How battle-tested are FreeBSD Jails?

Jails are in production since 1999/2000 when they were introduced - so 25 years strong - very well battle tested.

Docker is with us since 2014 so that means about 10 years less - but we must compare to Podman ...

Rootless support for Podman first appeared late 2019 (1.6) so only less then 6 years to test.

That means Jails are the most battle tested of all of them.

Hope that helps.

Regards, vermaden


I read the first line and expected LLM spam, but I was wrong. Thanks for the detailed comparison.

Thanks, when I read it know it really sounds like LLM :)

Say hello to vermadenGPT :]


I daily use FreeBSD on 2011 (14 years old now) legendary ThinkPad W520.

Details here:

- https://vermaden.wordpress.com/2022/04/14/freebsd-13-1-on-th...

Article is about FreeBSD 13.1 - but as time passed I followed all new versions and its at 14.2 now.

Config did not changed - still running strong.


> - [0] https://klarasystems.com/articles/

I personally wrote several of them :)


... and if someone looks for more reasons 'why' FreeBSD then here they are:

- https://vermaden.wordpress.com/2020/09/07/quare-freebsd/


But it also have drawbacks :)

But being honest - you can install BASH that way:

# pkg install -y bash


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