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America has entered the chat...


I don't think you know what dictatorship means. Anyone living in a real dictatorship would be offended by your comment.


Why would healthcare eat up all your savings in old age? Everyone in America is required to have health insurance.

No one actually pays $50k out of pocket for surgery. Most of it is covered by insurance.


There are gaps in Medicare coverage. There's long term care that isn't covered by Medicare; people can self insure, or purchase separate coverage, or many rely on Medicaid which requires exhausting assets first.

I've watched both my parents go through this, with significant chronic health issues. They had good private insurance on top of Medicare, they routinely had $10-30K annual itemized deductions for health related expenses that were not covered by their insurance. And that was with a daughter who is an MD who invested a massive amount of time and effort to get insurance to cover as much as possible.


Now they're fascist? I don't think you know what the definition of fascism is...

(sounds like you're repeating a talking point of the left of calling everyone on the right a fascist..)


no, if it walks like a duck...


You voted for the rapist felon buddy. Please go ahead and explain your definition of fascism.


What government data did they misinterpret?

They correctly stated that the job numbers always get revised down not up.

They also correctly stated that the GDP growth in the last quarter was largely driven by government spend, and if you take out the private sector, there was little growth.


> They also correctly stated that the GDP growth in the last quarter was largely driven by government spend, and if you take out the private sector, there was little growth.

The entire article is pointing out quite clearly that this, in fact, not correct.

> They correctly stated that the job numbers always get revised down not up.

This is also demonstrably false with like 5 minutes of research. This is all a matter of public record https://www.bls.gov/web/empsit/cesnaicsrev.htm


But if you already believe it the facts can still support it even if they are wrong. They feel right.


He's not wrong?


Where is any evidence he actually attempted a coup?

Here is evidence he told the protestors to be peaceful: https://x.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1346912780700577792

He never said "Storm the Capitol!!" or anything like that.


It's a fact he attempted a coup, the evidence is in the public record, the Trump–Raffensperger phone call was literally recorded and we have it. He was calling around everyone certifying the results pressuring them not to do so, and asking people to "find votes" for him. The mob storming the capital was a part of the whole, not the coup in its entirety, focusing on it as though it was the whole thing is absurdly misleading.


[flagged]


> If you have listened to the call or read the transcript and come away thinking "wow, Trump really tried to rig the election" then I don't know what to tell you. It's just plainly obvious that he did not do that, and I struggle to even comprehend how that could be a reasonable conclusion.

This is probably just sea-lioning, but I went back to re-read that transcript on the chance that this was an earnest comment and my previous view was colored.

There is no other way to read this transcript than Trump trying to strong-arm them into refusing to certify the election results. He says "find me this number of votes" multiple times, and the direct context was "you're facing criminal charges for this if you don't do as I am saying".

Here's a few of the relevant snippets, with context, for anyone reading this far:

---- > Trump: But I won’t … this is never … this is … We have some incredible talent said they’ve never seen anything … Now the problem is they need more time for the big numbers. But they’re very substantial numbers. But I think you’re going to find that they — by the way, a little information, I think you’re going to find that they are shredding ballots because they have to get rid of the ballots because the ballots are unsigned. The ballots are corrupt, and they’re brand new and they don’t have a seal and there’s the whole thing with the ballots. But the ballots are corrupt.

And you are going to find that they are — which is totally illegal, it is more illegal for you than it is for them because, you know what they did and you’re not reporting it. That’s a criminal, that’s a criminal offense. And you can’t let that happen. That’s a big risk to you and to Ryan, your lawyer. And that’s a big risk. But they are shredding ballots, in my opinion, based on what I’ve heard. And they are removing machinery and they’re moving it as fast as they can, both of which are criminal finds. And you can’t let it happen and you are letting it happen. You know, I mean, I’m notifying you that you’re letting it happen. So look. All I want to do is this. I just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have because we won the state.

> Trump: No, but this was. That’s OK. But I got like 78 percent in the military. These ballots were all for … They didn’t tell me overseas. Could be overseas too, but I get votes overseas too, Ryan, you know in all fairness. No they came in, a large batch came in and it was, quote, 100 percent for Biden. And that is criminal. You know, that’s criminal. OK. That’s another criminal, that’s another of the many criminal events, many criminal events here.

Oh, I don’t know, look Brad. I got to get … I have to find 12,000 votes and I have them times a lot. And therefore, I won the state. That’s before we go to the next step, which is in the process of right now. You know, and I watched you this morning and you said, uh, well, there was no criminality.

But I mean, all of this stuff is very dangerous stuff. When you talk about no criminality, I think it’s very dangerous for you to say that.

Source: https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/03/politics/trump-brad-raffenspe... ----

You really 'struggle to comprehend how that could be a reasonable conclusion'? There's no hint of a threat anywhere in there, in your opinion?


Thank you, couldn't have said it better myself. It's plain and unambiguous.


I guess there's just a disconnect here. Threatening someone with legal action for breaking the law is basically okay in my mind. Trump thought that there were unsigned ballots that were counted that were being destroyed, and that Raffensperger was either aware of it or was ignoring it or was just not doing the due diligence necessary to prevent it. He wanted to provoke Raffenperger to action by reminding him that he faces criminal liability for looking the other way.

If you are starting from the position of "Trump knows he does not have the votes and wants to cheat" then you can read this as extortion. I don't think you have to even go so far as to call Trump a saint -- he wasn't saying "you have to hunt down and prosecute all of these people for all of these things" so much as "just hunt down the people enough to get the 11,780 votes".

Or to put it another way -- in a call with Raffensperger with his attorney on the line, probably being recorded, what is it exactly that you think could have happened here? Even if Raffensperger wanted to cheat? In a state that was already being carefully watched? What possible course of action would have made sense here?

The only course of action that would have made sense was if Raffensperger could uncover widespread fraud of one of the forms that Trump described. Then exposing that fraud and showing that more than 11,780 votes were compromised would have been a huge deal. But people would have looked at those ballots. They would have listened to this phone call.


No reasonable person would believe this, it's the equivalent of believing that when someone asked their associate to make another person "sleep with the fishes" they were talking about an aquarium trip. It's just obviously not true.

Even if he hadn't been president with access to actually legal paths to investigate and address these things (and a responsibility to act ethically with the power he had where even the appearance of corruption is harmful), even if he had any evidence of actual fraud, even if he hadn't already organised a set of fake electors before the claimed "fraud" happened, even if you didn't have four people who have plead guilty to conspiring on this, even if he hadn't then refused to act when a violent mob stormed the capital on his behalf after he worked them up, even if half of his closest allies from his first term (including his vice president) weren't actively telling you this was his intent and plan, no reasonable person hears him leaning on the guy to just find the exact number of votes he needs to win and threatening him and thinks this was all above board.

You have to intentionally take his statements in ways no person actually would, and intentionally ignore all the damning context and evidence. It's not credible in the slightest.


To be fair and objective, he didn't attempt a coup...

Did he ever tell the rioters to storm the capital?

He literally told them to be peaceful: "Stay peaceful!"

"I am asking for everyone at the U.S. Capitol to remain peaceful. No violence! Remember, WE are the Party of Law & Order – respect the Law and our great men and women in Blue. Thank you!"

You can see the Tweets yourself on Jan 6 from Trump: https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/documents/tweets-january-6-2...

Or actual Tweet: https://x.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1346912780700577792


"Who will rid me of this turbulent priest?"[1]

Trump is very good at covering his own language and culpability. What were Trump's actions while the mob was storming the Capitol? How long did he wait to even put forth those tweets? In his speech before they stormed the Capitol, he said[2]

"We fight like hell. And if you don't fight like hell, you're not going to have a country anymore"

but he also said

"I know that everyone here will soon be marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard."

Does saying the latter negate the former in the minds of the mob that had been primed for nearly two months, without real evidence, to think the election had been stolen?

Does it matter that that there's evidence, presented in court, that Trump _knew_ he had lost the election and further knew that attempts to overturn the result were illegal? [3]

We all saw _with our own eyes_ what the mob did at the Capitol that day. There were people there with differing motivations and different understandings of what they were trying to accomplish by storming the Capitol. They've received differing levels of punishment as a result. But, I find it hard to not view the totality of the evidence presented to date and say that Trump wasn't trying to stay in power through unlawful means (i.e. "attempt a coup").

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Will_no_one_rid_me_of_this_tur... [2]: https://www.npr.org/2021/02/10/966396848/read-trumps-jan-6-s... [3]: https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/jack-smith-makes-his-ca...


Misinformation. He was actually silent during the insurrection, and he was very strongly encouraged to issue public statements after the attack happened.


Universal healthcare is usually not a plus.. ask any Canadian.


I'm Canadian and living in California. I want Universal Healthcare.


Try living in Canada. And experience the healthcare and wait times there. Many Canadians come to the USA for healthcare, or wish they could.


Even if the wait times get bad sometimes, isn't it worth the wait at times rather than going bankrupt? I think it's...a great trade off.

There are wait time problems in US too but maybe not as common.


You know it's the law in the US to have health insurance? Literally everyone must have health insurance otherwise you get penalized.

If you have health insurance it's not going to bankrupt you.

I know plenty of people without a job and are poor in the US... guess what? They get free healthcare. They don't pay a penny. You can even give birth and not pay a penny out of pocket if you are on Medical.

The US has a large population on free healthcare. California actually has quite a large "socialist" state. Lots of things are free or near free for people people. Similar to Canada or Europe. No one talks about it though.


If you want "universal healthcare" aka "free" healthcare, just quit your job.

Make below 40k or whatever the threshold is and you get Medical in California. It's basically free healthcare.

And if you have a job.. well then you have health insurance, and you won't go bankrupt because of it. And you get much better quality healthcare than in Canada.


This argument doesn't work in 2024.

I'm making well over six figures a year (and not in the Bay Area, for reference) in my 30s and have top quality healthcare supplied by my job. The last time I talked to a doctor, I had to schedule an appointment six months out just for a routine examination and blood work. The labs I reached out to for getting sleep studies done (which, for reference, I would've needed to pay out of pocket entirely) said they'd need similarly as long.

Can you convince me that our healthcare system is not broken? Ostensibly the person in your argument that is supposed to benefit the most from it?


Meh, I personally like it. It's a bit of liberating feeling to never, ever think about health insurance here in Vancouver. Obviously has ups and downs (especially for non elective surgeries), but it's my personal preference.


Same with 'Claude 3.5 Sonnet'.

At first I thought it was some piano piece like "Mazurkas, Op. 59" by Chopin, or had something to do with some French guy in the AI field.


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