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Trump and Elon apparently don't know how to do anything without first blowing it up.

It's divide and conquer tactics. They are not interested in continuity or a smoothly functioning economy. They want chaos and panic because they can exploit it.

> What do you call this position?

Being reasonable. The master/slave thing is silly.


To you maybe.

I worked with a woman whose relatives didn't make it out of Auschwitz.

She objected to us initializing System Services.

Silly?


Yes.

Germans are a bit touchy on this. There are a bunch of two-letter or two-digit combinations you can’t have on your license plate, for example. Somemore far-fetched than others. At some place I recently heard about they use two-letter initials (extremely collision prone, but whatever), except for people like Nadja Schmidt.

It’s definitely silly, but otoh I guess all culture is silly…


I also had relatives that didn't make it out of Auschwitz. I could not care less.

The silliest.

There is. It's Congress and impeachment. That won't happen but the mechanism is there.

He also doesn't fear impeachment, zero impact to him or his position.

I know. I'm just saying, that's the mechanism for this. You could argue there should be other routes and other mechanisms and I agree.

> Conservatives didn't have that with Harris.

Conservatives spent days nitpicking every single thing they could about Harris and would just invent things about Walz. Tim Walz's son cried and conservative media and social networks ran that into the ground for weeks. Acting like MAGA didn't say anything about Harris/Walz is pure delusion.


I think that shows conservatives were so starved for rage content that they needed to latch onto the side-show of a side-show in order to scratch that itch. Sequestering your candidate away from any kind of challenge certainly is a strategy.

I never said MAGA didn't say anything about Harris/walz. Is that what you took away from my post?


> Liberals love consuming Trump content, maybe even more than conservatives. Sort of like the Howard Stern effect. Because after they do, they can go post on Twitter and reddit about how stupid Trump is.

> Conservatives didn't have that with Harris.

Yes that is what I took from this.

> Sequestering your candidate away from any kind of challenge certainly is a strategy.

Interviews with Fox News and a public debate does not read as running away from challenge. She is not the one who ran from the debates.


Harris had fewer than half the media appearances as Trump. There is nothing to debate on this front.

https://www.wsj.com/politics/elections/trump-harris-tv-podca...


Doing less media != Running away from challenges. I'm sure all the right wing interviews and podcast appearances Trump did really threw him the hard questions.

I wish I could be as naive as you to think the people doing this are not corrupt and aren't further rigging the system for their benefit.

> On the contrary, his campaign denied he was going to do all this.

People believed the wolf when he said he wasn't going to hurt the sheep.


You think only social sciences use the words "bias" and "gender?"

List of words includes: female, females, and women. Does not include words like: male, males,and men.

Party of free speech that wants to protect women according to their supporters.


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That's literally what the quote says: "From a program officer at the National Science Foundation, a list of keywords that can cause a grant to be pulled". And then it goes on to quote a long list of words that would be characteristic of woke social science "research".

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You're not being very charitable, have you considered that you may be letting your biases have an undue influence on your judgement here?

I would flip this back on you. They gave a very good example of these rules being used for censorship with DeSantis prosecuting scientist for reporting numbers. Selective enforcement is a known thing so is your affection for the people in charge stopping you from seeing the obvious problem here?

I support the purported intent of this policy, not the misuse of it. But that's something that has to be challenged when it happens, and it hasn't happened yet. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to make any policy since it could always potentially be misused. For the record I expect there will be some misuse of it, but broadly I also expect it to curtail the fake woke "science" that was itself a kind of misuse of the system.

...can you point to some of this 'fake "woke" science'?

Here's a study that looked at precisely the kind of thing this policy will address: https://www.cspicenter.com/p/increasing-politicization-and-h...

To be clear, I would be in support of this policy even if there was no evidence because it sets a tone that I think is positive.


The tone it sets is that "we don't care about studying anything relating to minorities or people who weren't born with a silver spoon" which I wouldn't call a positive tone.

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The list very clearly spells it out and it will go that far if it hasn't already.

"wokesters" ah, that must be the IT standards organization that banned the use of the words "master" and "slave."

But is the "woke science" incorrect? It is possible that it is both accurate and something you dislike?

I was being charitable by asking whether you are gullible or a parrot. Gullible is the charitable interpretation. This whole action has been done on a pretext of lies: getting politics out of science, when it fact is is putting politics into science.

The politics was already in the science. So in the same spirit of being charitable that you afforded me, are you naive or foolish?

Politics and science are inseparable. There is no such thing as no politics in science.

But just the science relating to "women", not the science relating to "men?"

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https://journals.sagepub.com/home/men

Here you go.

When you lie, try not to do so in such an easily disprovable way.


Please don't cross into personal attack, no matter how wrong another comment is or you feel it is.

If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.


> The Republican Senator from Missouri Josh Hawley has introduced a new bill that would make it illegal to import or export artificial intelligence products to and from China, meaning someone who knowingly downloads a Chinese developed AI model like the now immensely popular DeepSeek could face up to 20 years in jail, a million dollar fine, or both, should such a law pass.

You get less jail time for committing 34 felonies.


You get less jail time for an insurrection aimed at overthrowing a free and fair election and beating the shit out of cops while doing so.

Truly, what do you even do as the CCP or some other party that would like to spread anti-American propaganda? Literally just point to the actual, factual state of this country and tell me it isn't a rolling joke.

It's open source, hosted on an American Github server. If you don't trust it, prove it.

If you really don't trust it, copy the algorithms without forking it. That's the big allure of OSS. You should be scutinous, but you should be able to base that scrutiny on cold hard facts.


Thats how most propaganda works. Russia, for example, has been publicizing cases of extreme racism in the US for years to demoralize black people. [1] Hell this has been going on since WWII, when other countries saw how the US treated their black troops, and used it to damage loyalty. [2]

Nothing works like the truth, if the US could just stop being so racist it'd be that much harder to divide us. It seems like that's fundementally against our nature though.

1. https://www.npr.org/2017/10/30/560042987/russians-targeted-u...

2. https://perspectives.ushmm.org/item/german-leaflet-for-black...


There's a museum in Shanghai with posters going back to Mao that take the same strategy. Lots of highlighting American racism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda_Poster_Art_Centre

https://www.tripadvisor.com/Attraction_Review-g308272-d18871...


US is a racist country though, at least at the government level. See how BLM and January 6th demonstrations got treated.

It took bipartisan pardons/commutations across 2 disparately ideological faction leaders to even the outcomes for both groups of people who purportedly aimed to overthrow the government that let them all be free.

Black Lives Matter only sought to "overthrow" the system in place if you presume first that racism is a core component of it.

So the outcomes are even now?

The thing that makes it a wedge issue that's useful for propaganda isn't that the US is racist, it's that the US is racist while (ostensibly) aspiring to be more in its creed.

The funny thing is Russia an China can claim to be less racist as they are homogenous societies.

Russia is homogenous? Interesting.

China is homogeneous?

If you were not aware, Russia is famously diverse and a large number of their oblasts(province level equivalent jurisdictions) are drawn up along ethnic lines

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_groups_in_Russia


... What?

That is completely nonsense. Absolutely ludicrous.

Neither Russia nor China are homogenous. Both have large Muslim minorities (and both are be pretty racist against them). Eastern Russians are not European descended and are looked down on by Western Russians. Tibetans are not Han Chinese.

Even the Asian nations that actually are pretty "homogenous" like Japan and Korea are also famously pretty racist.


There are also a ton of other ethnic groups in China and the government just call them all Han Chinese. Tons of ethnic groups in Russia too. These are countries with very long histories that span a large area, with many areas that were multiple kingdoms, tribes, etc. Makes perfect sense that they would have a lot of different ethnic groups.

... Homogenous in _what way_?!

They're both the remnants of large land empires, each incorporating many ethnicities, languages, religions... They are not at all homogenous.

Like, that whole thing with the Uyghurs, what did you think that was about? Or Chechnya?


The Republican party could pull a 180 and stop instituting policies that prove CCP anti-American propoganda correct, and pass universal health care, free education, civil rights, and all those other socialist freedom crushing commie pinko ideologies.

CCP is no stranger to chaos and self sabotage either. China is probably the least affected and most likely still standing in one piece

It's kind of like the export controls over strong encryption that we dealt with in the 90s. There used to be separate binaries for Netscape or Mozilla back in the day.

You mean one time-barred, victimless misdemeanor that got transmogrified into 34 felonies by an overzealous political hack of a prosecutor?

Lawfare was tried, and it failed. I hope it dies the death it deserves instead of becoming the new normal.


If you're an actual attorney, you should be disbarred. Not sorry.

Disbarred for being realistic and honest about what a mistake that prosecution was? I voted for Harris BTW.

Ga's are still elected. "Hard on Crime" still works as a campaign slogan to this day.

We have a deeper societal perception to fix first before we can even think about a justice system focused on rehabilitation. It'd also be nice to remove that certain clause in the 13th amendment while we're at it.


up to 20 years. Realistically some kid downloading a model would get probation, and you'd only get 20 years if you were making an entire enterprise out of it.

relevant: https://web.archive.org/web/20130208124604/https://www.popeh...


You and I know this isn't how this works.

The moment the government wants to punish someone over this they will grab some random kid that's barely done anything and threaten them with the full 20 years to serve as an example to others.


Where's the kid rotting in federal prison for downloading a mp3? Does the music/movie industry not have good enough lobbyists to make an example of a torrenter?

Capital Records vs Jamie Thomas where Capital Records was awarded around 2 million in damages and Sony vs Joel Tenenbaum. These cases are not uncommon.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitol_Records%2C_Inc._v._Tho...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_BMG_v._Tenenbaum


Those cases are extremely uncommon. In nearly every case what happened was:

1. The RIAA sent a letter telling how many songs you were distributing and offering a settlement of around $2-5 per song. Most people at this point realized that they were in fact guilty and that the RIAA had enough evidence to prove it in court and agreed to settle.

2. A small fraction ignored this or refused to settle. The RIAA then files lawsuits in some of those cases, typically over a small number of the songs that the person was distributing rather than over all the songs being distributed.

At this point most defendants would get a lawyer and be told that they will almost certainly lose and advised to settle.

3. A handful of people ignored their lawyers (or had crappy lawyers) and plowed on. Their extraordinarily bad decision making often continued during their trial. Thomas for instance lied in court and tried to destroy evidence.

This is not wise since in these suits the plaintiff is asking for statutory damages, which is a minimum of $750 per song (not per download--if you were offering 2 songs for download and they were each download 1000 times the minimum is 2 x $750, not 2000 x $750) but can go up to $30000, and it is the jury that determines the amount in that range. You really want the jury to find you sympathetic, and lying and trying to destroy evidence doesn't help with that.

4. After the inevitable victory in most cases that got far the RIAA would again offer to settle for an amount much lower than the damages awarded by the court, although higher than their original settlement offer.

I don't know how many reached this stage, but if many did most of them came to their senses and realized that appealing would probably only make it worse.

The very small number that didn't are the ones that ended up like the two cases you cited.


A very small number end up with a high profile but there are many John Doe or Jane Doe cases where names aren't publicized.

Civil vs criminal. Federal sentencing guidelines don't apply.

You want federal then take a step out and look at all the people who got 10-15 years for carrying an quarter ounce of weed. Sentencing is very selective based on who they want to make an example of and when.

https://nitter.net/ddmeyer/status/1220480907393372160#m

(The graphs in the first tweet are from page 55 of the linked PDF.)


>mandatory minimum [...]

Which isn't applicable to the law being proposed. Moreover if the idea is "threaten them with the full 20 years to serve as an example", then the mandatory minimum kinda works against that? If you catch some guy and then he serves 10 years, you haven't really proven much. You're just acting in line with expectations.


>You want federal then take a step out and look at all the people who got 10-15 years for carrying an quarter ounce of weed.

Source? My impression is that in basically all of those cases, it's either because:

1. the guy is a repeat offender and/or on probation

2. the guy decided to wanted to fight to the bitter end and they threw the book at them

I'm not saying either are justified, but the implication that someone will get 20 years just because he downloaded deepseek through ollama or whatever is still false.


> the guy is a repeat offender and/or on probation

“It was for two or three quarter ounces of weed!” isn’t the defense you imagine.


I don't know, you tell me what happend to that Aaron guy that ran Reddit?

I finally got around to watching "The Internet's Own Boy" the other day. He told his girlfriend as they were driving by the Whitehouse that didn't want to accept the plea deal and plead guilty "because felons can't work in that building" [the Whitehouse]. Oh, man, how times have changed.

Thanks for proving my point. Schwartz was offered 6 months in a minimum security prison, but he declined it because he specifically wanted a trial. Moreover that was for effectively DoSing JSTOR, a much more serious crime than some guy using a vpn to download an AI model. I don't think 6 months was justified, nor the string of crimes he was charged with, but OP's assertion that "You get less jail time for committing 34 felonies" is still false.

>During plea negotiations with Swartz's attorneys, the prosecutors offered to recommend a sentence of six months in a low-security prison if Swartz pled guilty to 13 federal crimes. Swartz and his lead attorney rejected the deal, opting instead for a trial where prosecutors would be forced to justify their pursuit of him.


It's a shame Swartz was downloading JSTOR articles to share. He could have DoS'd half the internet and gotten away scot-free if he'd been training an ML system instead.

You just need articles of incorporation and all crimes become civil matters.

Last I checked, 6 months is still more time than 0 time. Not sure your point with this comparison

Last time I checked, entering an (unlocked) IT closet, using it to DoS a site and continuing to do so despite being IP banned a few times is slightly more serious than "some kid downloading a model".

Yes, but all the way back to the top of this specific thread was 34 felonies got 0 months. You're now comparing 6 months against a hypothetical where nothing has actually happened.

I think the issue under discussion is whether or not this kind of law is applied gently and with consideration to seriousness, or whether it tends to be used as a club to make an example of people. I think Swartz is seen as an example of it being used as a club to make an example of people.

>I think the issue under discussion is whether or not this kind of law is applied gently and with consideration to seriousness, or whether it tends to be used as a club to make an example of people.

I'm not sure how you got that impression from the original exchange of:

>>[...] You get less jail time for committing 34 felonies.

>up to 20 years. Realistically some kid downloading a model would get probation [...]


I didn't get that impression from the original exchange, I got it from the thread I am responding to involving Aaron Swartz being given as a counter-example to the last point, and inferring why somebody would use Aaron Swartz as a counter-example.

Seems I was right in that inference, given other responses to the thread since.


I think it's not about examples. Every attorney graduating with a quarter million in student debt that gets a low pay government job is trying to punch a lot of notches in their belt so that they can be picked up by a major law firm with a pretty paycheck. They'd be stupid or magnanimous to look the other way on easy wins.

Facts need not apply. We’re righteously indignant for goodness sake! Stop with all the nonsense “facts” and “reality” unless they fit the narrative.

This is a good point. If one thing didn’t happen then a different unrelated thing cannot happen. You would think that the reason for nobody being in jail for downloading mp3s would be that there is no criminal law against downloading mp3s but actu

Pirating is not a criminal offense in America. It is in other parts of the world, like Japan, which, tangentially, is why Japanese piracy is so underground and tends to use different software stacks to the norm, cf. Perfect Dark (the filesharing program, not the game).

They already know none of this is legal. The goal is to just keep the courts tied up while Musk goes in and does the heist stealing federal data and wrecking what he can in the process.

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The Biden administration actually stopped and respected the rulings and found other methods.

When? After the 5th failed attempt?

You're naive if you think the end goal here is to actually reduce spending and improve efficiency.

We'd all love to agree on limiting handouts to things that give the American people nothing in return... good luck convincing Trump though.

  BREAKING: The Trump admin. has asked congressional leaders to approve new transfers of roughly $1 billion worth of bombs and other military hardware to Israel - WSJ
https://x.com/Breaking911/status/1886502086021669031

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